God creates believers for Himself

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by steaver, Jan 4, 2013.

  1. steaver

    steaver
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    The doctrine of TULIP declares to us that God is creating believers for Himself without any choice given to the person. This person is created through the Holy Spirit regeneration. Once regenerated, this person will freely love God, worship God and obey God.

    Didn't God already create such a person in Adam, and then in Eve?

    If God's purpose in Creation is to have subjects freely love Him, worship Him and obey Him, and such a created person should have no say in this matter, it all being the creation of the Holy Spirit indwellement, then God had such a person in Adam and Eve, and then subsequently in all their offspring, untainted by any such thing as sin.

    No need for a hell, no need for sin, no need for damnation, not even a need for salvation.

    Make some sense out of this for me. You want me to believe that God needed to damn to hellfire billions of people so He could create some people to love, worship and obey Him? He could have done that and did do that in Adam and Eve. If this is what God wanted then He had it and had no need to place a forbidden tree in the garden of Eden and give the man and woman a choice.
     
  2. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast
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    steaver

    No....this is not the teaching at all.You expect a response but this is not the teaching

    Every saved person is regenerated by the Holy Spirit.
    No he did not. Adam was created innocent and yet untested.
    ,

    Do you have biblical support for this statement?


    We cannot speculate as to what could have been, we need to deal with what is.
    that situation is past .

    Again...do you have any biblical support for your statement? God does not "need "anything. You speak of Him as if he were a man.



    Are you suggesting that you could offer God your wisdom and understanding instead of His now? You have solved things in a more complete way?:confused::eek::confused:
     
  3. steaver

    steaver
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    Here again you have no problem declaring a theology having no scripture which specifically says God tested Adam. Yet if I say such things you say "were does the scripture say"

    We have to debate on equal grounds if you want to be instructive. Can you point to scripture which says God tested Adam? I agree He did btw, but not because God specifically said so, we draw that out of the situation we see Adam has been placed in. I am just pointing out that your debate tactic of saying God never said such and such is not fair when you do the same in your post when bringing your pov to the discussion.
     
  4. Iconoclast

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    The fact that you agree shows you understand from scripture that Adam failed to obey lawful commands. You also know which scriptures to use to demonstate this ...gen1-3 , lk 4 romans 5 1cor 15.

    I am asking you which scripture you could point to to support your statements which were made in error and unsupportable.

    Also...you speak of tulip ,but have not shown in these recent posts any real understanding of the doctrine because of your statements.maybe you have done this in the past but I have not read all your posts.Do you recall one that I could read that shows you are familiar with the teaching?

    As for now the statement about God are most troubling.
     
    #4 Iconoclast, Jan 5, 2013
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  5. moral necessity

    moral necessity
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    Well...the idea is, that, God created his creation with a purpose.

    If God only wanted his creation to understand his goodness and kindness, then he would have left it as such.

    But, he also wanted his creation to understand his mercy and justice, qualities which would make no sense at all if man had not fallen into sin and not needed to be redeemed.

    Blessings...
     
    #5 moral necessity, Jan 5, 2013
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  6. steaver

    steaver
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    Amen! :thumbsup:
     
  7. steaver

    steaver
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    Gen 2:16-17

    Did God know Adam would fail?

    Did God place that tree there knowing Adam would fail?

    Did God set Adam up to fail that Jesus Christ may be glorified?
     
  8. steaver

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    Not sure why God causing Adam to fail by placing that forbidden fruit in his reach would trouble you.

    Does not God cause blindness in people from the gospel so they cannot believe and be saved?
     
  9. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire
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    There is Braille, right! But do you think that it is in reading the gospels that we are saved? Really!!!
     
    #9 Earth Wind and Fire, Jan 5, 2013
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  10. steaver

    steaver
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    Well, yes, don't you??

    "So then faith [cometh] by hearing, and hearing by the word of God" (Romans 10).
     
  11. steaver

    steaver
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    Oh, I just got it! lol. I'm a little slow :laugh:

    I should have said spiritual blindness! :wavey:
     
  12. zrs6v4

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    Steaver,

    What exactly are you trying to understand?
     
  13. Iconoclast

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    God knowing all things,and God placing that tree in the garden.....did not CAUSE Adam to fall. God had Given Adam life and an opportunity to obey and serve and worship him forever. God the father allowed the second Adam, the lord Jesus Christ to be tempted by satan....Jesus did not fail. Allow Satan to tempt does not cause sin...the person tempted is drawn away of their own lust and enticed.

    The fact that in God's eternal purpose Jesus Christ will be glorified.....did not cause Adam to sin.Adam was fully responsible for his sin.

    Steaver....God does not cause men to sin.This would be to ascribe an evil motive to God. What you are describing would have God causing sin in Adam and then punishing Adam for what he caused??? this is wrong thinking absolutely.

    Men being born in Adam are already spiritually blind. When scripture makes reference to those blinded....it is speaking of God reprobating them, confirming them in their sin,and without salvation coming their way.
    Pharoah 3 times hardened his own heart , before the bible says God hardened his heart.
    30 Reprobate silver shall men call them, because the Lord hath rejected them.
     
    #13 Iconoclast, Jan 5, 2013
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  14. percho

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    For this [is] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more. Hebrews 8:10-12

    Are these people what they shall become, because they changed their mind and became believers, or because they have been given a new birth from above, Re-created as new creations in Christ? ---Believing sheep?

    (That is.)

    And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all he might have the preeminence.
    Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Col. 1:18,15 & Romans 8:29 KJV

    My sheep hear my voice.

    They are moved from unbelif unto belief and will be born again in the image of the resurrected Jesus of Nazareth, the Son of God at his appearing and his kingdom.


    I do not know what TULIP says relative to this.

    No in Adam and Eve taken from him, he created living soiuls which could die and the Lamb of God came as a living soul and died for our sins. He was then given the grace of life, eternal life, quickened by Spirit the God his Father, by resurrection. For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth John 5:21 The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam a quickening spirit. 1 cor 15:45 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; John 5:26
     
    #14 percho, Jan 5, 2013
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  15. steaver

    steaver
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    Adam was given a choice, correct?

    Was it possible for Jesus to fail?

    I find it interesting that Eve would have had this kind of lust within her perfect being. I thought it was the sinful flesh or sin nature which causes this lust within.

    You might look at it that way I suppose. But then we have the account of Job and God unleashing satan upon the righteous man. Of course Job stood strong and did not sin, at least until the very end when he got self-righteous and God then let him have it.

    And Who has caused their blindness through a curse?
     
  16. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast
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    steaver
    No...he was given instruction and a command....and a warning of the serious consequence of turning from the way of life.
    15 And the Lord God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it.

    16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:

    17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

    Was it possible for Jesus to fail?

    No.....Jesus could not sin, or fail.

    Adam and Eve were untested...with original righteousness.....but not perfect .


    The same pattern that caused Eve to yield to sin and temptation is described in james 1:
    13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

    14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

    15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

    16 Do not err, my beloved brethren.


    God provided Job with any grace and righteousness he had. God is sovereign over everything and even Satan is 100% under God;s control.
    Job and all persecuted saints will be avenged by God and rewarded for any suffering and persecution by the ungodly men and angels.

    They did by their own sin and covenant breaking.The Covenant curses of Deut 28 were inflicted upon each and every covenant breaker.
     
  17. steaver

    steaver
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    What do you mean when you say they were "untested"? What was God testing?

    I'm speaking of the curse given in Genesis. According to TULIP, they had no choice but to not believe from that original fall and curse.
     
  18. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast
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    steaver

    Good question. I think to answer these kind of questions we need all 66 books in this sense.

    1] Moses writes Genesis

    2] Moses was not there when God created Adam and Eve...or when they fell.

    3] This tells us that God had him write what we need to know...as it pertains ultimately to the blood of the cross, and the redemption of God's people.

    4] So we must do two things...examine the Gen. account carefully for what is and is not revealed in it....then see how those facts square with the other 65 books of revealed truth.

    5] We can only glean accurately from the text of scripture by what it says directly,and by what it says in other places as the Spirit would reveal truth.

    Can I give an example?

    You ask;
    Throughout scripture we notice God tests with the idea that man be approved by obedience of faith.ie, [Abraham/Issac}
    Do you think that God did not already know???

    Adam and Eve after creation were described in part here..........
    So they were very good....brand new....with original righteousness...in other words, there was no sin,death , or rebellion...

    Steaver.... we are not told;

    1] How long this condition existed

    2] What was unfallen man like without the burden and curse of sin and death

    3] We are told Adam named all the animals...how did he do this? What language skills and mental capacity was he created with from his first day on earth. He did not watch animal planet, or get a set of hooked on phonics, or rosetta stone:laugh:

    4] How much communion and fellowship did he enjoy with God? we are not told what degree of gift he had.

    5] he walked with clear conscience before God...we have no idea what that kind of pure fellowship is.except for one thing and the one thing gives some of the answer here.

    We are to study the life and active obedience of the second Adam, the Lord Jesus Christ...the only True Image Bearer, and the True Israel of God.

    in doing that we see this for example....

    Like the first Adam, Jesus was approached by Satan, and being asked to act independantly of the Fathers will as Adam was.

    Notice...Satan always ascribes evil motives to God the Father. I warn many here on BB not to ascribe these same evil motives to our Holy God
    or this...

    The image bearer teaching studied out shows the answer to some of your testing question....Jesus always did the will of the Father...Adam did not.

    The scripture does not tell us all things we want to speculate about.We are given all we need to know as pertains to life and godliness.


    Steaver...No...Total depravity.....describes man after the fall, not before.

    This is why i suggest that you read some good online sources on this...half of your questions will clear up when you are exposed to truth.

    for you,enjoy:
    http://www.chapellibrary.org/audio/here-we-stand/
     
    #18 Iconoclast, Jan 6, 2013
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  19. steaver

    steaver
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    Ok, so your answer is God was testing Adam and Eve's obedience of faith.

    I know, you said, "They (Jews) did by their own sin and covenant breaking.The Covenant curses of Deut 28 were inflicted upon each and every covenant breaker". And I said I was speaking of the curse given in Genesis, before any other humans were born. You will have to reread the post, I believe you misunderstood my question.
     

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