God does not offer grace to some people?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Revmitchell, Jul 14, 2010.

  1. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2006
    Messages:
    38,287
    Likes Received:
    780
    Where in scripture does it clearly delineate that God does not offer grace to some people?


    added note:


    I did not realize that my question would not be clear. The context of grace in my question is in regard to salvation not simply choosing whom the Messiah would come through.
     
    #1 Revmitchell, Jul 14, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 14, 2010
  2. Rhetorician

    Rhetorician
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 1, 2005
    Messages:
    2,007
    Likes Received:
    2
    Rev Mitchell Reponse

    Hello!

    How about Romans 9 where Paul contrasts the two sons, Jacob have I loved, Esau have I hated?

    Don't sound like grace to me.

    "That is all!" :thumbsup:
     
  3. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2006
    Messages:
    38,287
    Likes Received:
    780

    So it is your position that the only reasonable understanding of that passage is that no grace was ever offered to some? Is it not possible that you have taken the word "hated" to an extreme? Could Paul have not meant that God simply preferred Jacob over Esau?
     
    #3 Revmitchell, Jul 14, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 14, 2010
  4. thegospelgeek

    thegospelgeek
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 28, 2008
    Messages:
    1,139
    Likes Received:
    0
    God does not love me or any of my children.
     
  5. RAdam

    RAdam
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2009
    Messages:
    2,100
    Likes Received:
    0
    I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
     
  6. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2006
    Messages:
    38,287
    Likes Received:
    780

    Great! But where is the context for that? Compassion in regards to what?
     
  7. RAdam

    RAdam
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2009
    Messages:
    2,100
    Likes Received:
    0
    Paul said that God loved Jacob, but hated Esau, and this wasn't in response to anything they did, but rather God told their mother before they were born or had done any good or evil that the elder would serve the younger so that God's purprose according to election might stand. Paul then asks the question, "is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid." Paul then states the verse I quotes and followed that up by saying, "so then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth but of God that showeth mercy."
     
  8. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2006
    Messages:
    38,287
    Likes Received:
    780

    And the word "mercy" points to what? What is the context of "mercy" and how do you know what the context is? I ask the same of "election".
     
    #8 Revmitchell, Jul 14, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 14, 2010
  9. RAdam

    RAdam
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2009
    Messages:
    2,100
    Likes Received:
    0
    The context is the sovereignty of God. I know that because I read the chapter. Paul is using election to show God's sovereignty. God chose Jacob, but Esau was rejected, and the basis of this choosing wasn't anything those two individuals did, but rather the sovereign choice of God. Was God unrighteous to do things that way? No. God has mercy on whom He will, and we have no right to question Him. Hath not the potter power over the clay to make of one lump a vessel unto honor, and another unto dishonor?

    Obviously mercy here is pointing to the peculiar blessings God showers on His elect, that He gives not to those He didn't choose.
     
  10. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2006
    Messages:
    38,287
    Likes Received:
    780

    This is not an answer. This is simply making a claim with no support. I am looking for scriptural support. If you cannot delineate clearly I understand.
     
  11. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2006
    Messages:
    38,287
    Likes Received:
    780

    Please see my clarification in the op. I am sorry for the confusion.
     
  12. RAdam

    RAdam
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2009
    Messages:
    2,100
    Likes Received:
    0
    I did read the OP. I still gave you a clear passage that speaks about the grace that God gives only to His elect. That passage in Romans 9 is speaking about God's election and the peculiar blessings God bestows on those He chose. He chose them, not based on their actions or merits, but on His sovereign choice. Thus, you have a scripture that shows that God has mercy on some but not on others, and He is right to do so.
     
  13. Darrenss1

    Darrenss1
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2009
    Messages:
    587
    Likes Received:
    0
    The "election" was not for eternal life, no where in that passage does it refer to eternal life election. There is God's grace upon those for living in this world and there is grace for eternal life. This is the issue I disagree with Calvinists over in Rom 9 -
    11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)

    Has to do with God's earthly decrees over the nations, not eternal life salvation. Seems very obvious to me.

    Darren
     
  14. Luke2427

    Luke2427
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2010
    Messages:
    7,598
    Likes Received:
    8
    I am afraid all this will do is invite everyone to bring their proof texts to the table and no one is going to allow for the other's proof text to say anything that they don't agree with.

    I've already noticed that some texts were offered that seemed to very clearly indicate that God loves some over others and those texts were rejected. I am also aware that there are texts that seem to indicate that God does not wish for any to perish and that he loves the whole world and is no respecter of persons. So...

    Perhaps a better angle would be:
    Why does God have to offer grace to everyone?

    For what purpose is he obligated to love everybody?

    Is it wrong for God to save some and let others perish?

    Who can judge God if he does things that way?

    What makes man so special that God would be evil to not provide for his well being?
     
  15. RAdam

    RAdam
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2009
    Messages:
    2,100
    Likes Received:
    0
    If you would read the entire chapter you would see that Paul is discussing further his declaration that they are not all Israel which are of Israel. In other words, not all of the nation of Israel are God's elect. He uses two examples, first Isaac, and then Jacob. As you go forward in the context you see that he is still talking about individuals. Finally, in verse 24 he says, "whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles." This is individual, personal election to eternal life. You may not agree with that, but that's what the context teaches.
     
  16. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2006
    Messages:
    38,287
    Likes Received:
    780

    Please address post #8
     
  17. RAdam

    RAdam
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2009
    Messages:
    2,100
    Likes Received:
    0
    I have explained the context. You don't agree with it.
     
  18. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2006
    Messages:
    38,287
    Likes Received:
    780

    I haven't gotten enough specific info from you to either agree or not agree. What specific verses and words indicate the context for both mercy and election?

    I am not looking for your personal and vague overview. If that is not something you want to do then I understand. Maybe someone else who is of the reformed persuasion will feel like taking the time to be more specific.
     
  19. ReformedBaptist

    ReformedBaptist
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2007
    Messages:
    4,894
    Likes Received:
    27
    ------------------
     
    #19 ReformedBaptist, Jul 14, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 15, 2010
  20. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2006
    Messages:
    38,287
    Likes Received:
    780
    What then is the context of verse 6?
     

Share This Page

Loading...