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Yes, Zaac, There is Such a Place!

ZAAC Asked: Do you know of a Church that composed of 100%homosexuals who believe that committing homosexual acts is not a sin and who would thus commit those sins again?

Such as this link:http://www.orthodoxresearchinstitute.org/articles/ethics/hopko_homosexual_christian.htm

http://www.gaychurch.org/Gay_and_Christian_YES/gay_and_christian_yes.htm

http://www.gaychurch.org/

I talk [more like argue with] with gays on another forum [where they actively debate me about being able to be born-again, and continue to be "gay" with all the benefits of being gay] every day.

If I read your above question correctly, I have provided you with the answers to your questions. There are a great many gay churches, and the number is growing, because, yes, they do want a place to go where their "bedroom activities" are absolved, and their spirit soothed! I believe this falls under the Scripture in 2 Timothy 4:2-4 (NRSV) - "...proclaim the message; be persistent whether the time is favorable or unfavorable; convince, rebuke, and encourage, with the utmost patience in teaching. For the time is coming when people will not put up with sound doctrine, but having itching ears, they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own desires, and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander away to myths."

My question to you is simple: How do you deal with these folks? They have preachers telling them they are OKAY? I argue with these folks daily [on another forum], and it is futile, because they've been told what they want to hear.

I don't know is homosexuality is the worse of the sins, but in my way of seeing it, it is the most dangerous of the sins, because it is ingratiating itself unto the world and changing minds on both sides of the issue. It is changing society. It is becoming acceptable in the minds and hearts of more people with each day, because people know someone who is gay, and they say the same thing, "These are decent people. Fun-loving folks, who would do anything for you!"

Homosexuality is the most lethal of sins in the way it has infiltrated society and now the church, and most see nothing wrong with it. People still see something wrong with stealing, killing, lying, gossiping, fornicating, adultery, etc. But when it comes to homosexuality, people have become extremely soft, and willing to accept the sinner and their sin. After all, what goes on in the bedroom is no one's business. Not even Gods, apparently! :tear:

Even the Mormon church allows gays to serve and be members, so long as they sign an agreement to remain chaste. :smilewinkgrin: If you believe that is going to happen, I have some oceanfront property in Kansas to sell you at a dollar an acre. :thumbs:

If you want to know what I think is behind the sudden raise in gay fellowships, I will tell you that I believe it is the money taken in during offerings. It is a proven fact that a lot of homosexuals make good money.

Perhaps the earliest source of U.S. gay demographics was for The Advocate in 1977, which found that its readership earned about 50% more income than the national average, and 70% were college graduates. Then in 1988, the National Gay Newspaper Guild hired Simmons Market Research, a widely respected market research firm. It mailed to readers of eight gay newspapers, that found average income was $36,800 compared to $12,287 for the general population, and that 60% of gays versus 18% of the U.S. population had college degrees!

For complete report and study, SEE:http://www.commercialcloset.com/com...cID=384&subsection=resources&subnav=resources

And in my heart of hearts, I find it impossible to be a born-again homosexual. If to be born-again means to "go and sin no more" that insinuates that the person leaves their old life behind. If a homosexual is born-again, they must want to leave that moniker behind and no longer be associated with that lifestyle. You can't serve to masters. YOU above anyone else on this board should know that is a fact, as you are always preaching this.

 

Yep. And the homosexual reprobate isn't any worse than the others.

Yep. Still trying to change the subject.

 

Perhaps you didn't understand my question. it was meant to show that much like the situation OR mentioned, it is highly unlikely that there is such a church with not a single homosexual in it who does not believe the acts are wrong.

Committing homosexual acts is no more dangerous a sin than any other. This sin and others are thriving because of what the Church is not doing.

Part of the wickedness of the Church is making certain people into the same type pariahs that lepers were considered to be.

 

Not changing the subject Zaac, just showing how asinine your attempts to downplay the abomination of homosexual lifestyle is. Furthermore in post 37 you make the following similar comparisons:

The question is just what is your motive in making these outlandish statements. Would you make that same argument that telling a "white lie" is as bad as the man in Alabama who murdered a school bus driver and kidnapped a 5 year old boy. The same illogical reasoning applies and again demonstrates that your comparisons are false and that your attempt to whitewash the abomination of homosexual behavior is despicable.

 

Prehaps You Didn't Understand Me...

...I firmly believe homosexuality is the most dangerous of all the sins we have in our world today. Go back and read my post, and the links I took time to provide. This sin is not portraying homosexuals as lepers or pariahs. It is portraying it as it is, a growing problem that the church is either unable to deal with, or doesn't want to deal with. It is a fact [and maybe you can show me where it isn't] that this sin has been slowly, like a cancer, eating away at the moral fabric of this nation and the church for years, and it is no longer seen as a sin, by a great many of folks both in and outside of the church. Did you even take the time to read the links that show all the churches that are in place to serve the homosexual community and their supporters???

Get off your dais for one minute and take a look at what I am saying and others. It is a problem of gigantic proportions that is even getting the church to bow at its altars in absolution and acceptance. If you can't see that, then I feel sorry for you.

True all sin is bad...which is why t's called sin. However, this one sin has subtly connived its way past the gates of the church through a more tolerant society, and like a well-defined trojan horse, it is going to bring a great many people down with it.

We don't have churches that are committed to serving killers; robbers; thiefs; rapists; gossipers; fornicators, etc. But we have churches committed to serving gays, while allowing the gays to continue in their sinful lifestyle. "Nuff said! If that doesn't get through to you, nothing will! :BangHead:

 

Yep, changing the subject.

Odd because I have had the same question for years about why you and so many other Christians make these outlandish, unBiblically based statements about homosexuals, drug abusers, etc.

Yep. Both need to be covered by the blood of Christ. Look it's obvious that you have a personal axe to grind on this issue. You continue to display the human perspective of how much worse you think this sin is than others. Yet YOUR perspective is not in line with the BIBLICAL perspective of God's word.

In man's eyes, a white lie probably isn't as bad as murdering a school bus driver and kidnapping a 5 year old boy. But that's man's eyes. When man shuns him and casts his sin as being worse than the worst, the Jesus Christ in me is compelled to reach out to him in love and let him know that his sin is no worse than the next in the eyes of God and that forgiveness and redemption is available for even him if he doesn't already have it.

Whitewash what abomination? Scripture says abomination then it's an abomination. But scripture says other things are an abomination. That descriptor doesn't make the sin worse than any other.

What is despicable is your continued vendetta to make these folks out to be the vilest of the vile. One would wonder by the tone of many about these people's sins if some on here wouldn't just assume they go to hell rather than treat them as though they matter to God in spite of their sin.

He did it for each of us. WHy is it so difficult to do it for another?

 

And I believe it is a dangerous thing to place that sort of stumbling block in the paths of those who are ministering to homosexuals, and that it is a very damaging thing to hear from those who are supposed to deliver God's HOPE.

I truly believe that the unrepentant sins of the Church are much more dangerous than anything the world can present.

Homosexuality is not the only growing problem. ALL sin is. And this just happens to be a part of the greater wickedness that God said would come in the last days.

3 But mark this: There will be terrible times in the last days. 2 People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, 3 without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not lovers of the good, 4 treacherous, rash, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God— 5 having a form of godliness but denying its power. Have nothing to do with such people. 2 Tim. 3:1-5

And I say again. ALL of those issues can be traced right back to an unrepentant Church unable to wield the power of the Holy Spirit to fight back rampant sin because of our unrepentance.

The issue with sin in the world is the condition in the CHURCH, not amongst the lost.

Perhaps you and others can show how this sin is different from any other sin eating away at the fabric of the nation and church?

How is this idolatry---because ultimately all sin boils down to idolatry---in the form of homosexuality any more of a cancer than the onslaught of heterosexual porn in the church? Or the idolatrous onslaught of adultery or abortion or lying or backstabbing or undisciplining, or greed, etc, that exists in the Church and has been getting worse and worse?

This issue with folks on this board is the same as it is with abortion during an election cycle. Some center in on it as being THE issue while throwing on blinders to everything else.

The lack of love coming out of the Church for the poor, the widowed and the orphaned is a far greater cancer on this nation.

The Church not acting like the Church Jesus Christ left is a far greater cancer on the nation and the world.

Sure did. And all those "churches" do nothing to show that my statement was not true. Do you have proof that there are not individuals in those churches who believe that homosexual acts are wrong?

I don't have a dais.

Oh so all of a sudden the church wants to have convictions on something? Again, that's part of the problem. The Church keeps trying to play situational ethics. If something meets their needs, as exampled on this board during the last election cycle, the members of the church will make up every excuse in the book to justify supporting something.

What I feel sorry for is all the homosexuals who will go to hell because you and the sort on this board who continue to brand them as the vilest and worst of the worst do your best to make them into the 21st century lepers who are responsible for all that is wrong with the world instead of reaching out to them with the love of Christ. May God have mercy on their souls because of the wickedness...yes the straight unrepentant WICKEDNESS of those in the Church.

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Ain't nothing connived it's way into the Church. The Church dropped the ball on this issue and several others. And now the nasty side of the "Church" seems to be rearing its head because this has been made into a political issue. That might explain the lack of love that comes from so many when dealing with this issue.

And what exactly are you and the folks who are saying what you're saying doing to get gay people out of their sinful lifestyle? Fred Phelps has been telling them the same things that the lot of you are saying. How has that worked out?

If you want to point someone to Jesus, then treat them the way Jesus treated the societally shunned with whom He came in contact. And there just is no history of HIM making one persons sin out to be worse or more damaging to society than any other.

 

And I believe that anger is a stumbling block, too! And your anger is getting the best of you as you attack your brothers on this board. I am not attacking you. Just stating what I believe. So calm down, take a breath or two, and relax. We both believe the same thing. Gays need Jesus, too!

However, there is no way that a gay person can come to Jesus and still be gay!?!?! I hope this isn't what you are trying to convey, because if it is, then I have to question your motives/theology.

As for the gay community. I never said they were the "vilest of the vile!" Just that this sin, is slowly eroding away at the moral fabric of our society and the Biblical teaching of the church. Do you disagree with this? If you do, that is your right as much as it is my right to believe that homosexuality is killing this society and taking the church down with it. That doesn't mean it's "vile!" Just that I see it [homosexuality] as needing our immediate attention.

If you are ministering and have a heart for gays, that is great. They need people like yourself. I, too, am ministering to them. In fact I have a daughter that is a lesbian, and I want her to come back to the real Jesus, not the one her churc [a false church]h says she can follow and continue to live in sin!

Just remember that the women caught in adultary and brought to Jesus for stoning, was told by Jesus to "Go and SIN no more!" This clearly says that once forgiven, you are no longer to be associated with the thing He delivered you from.

You can't serve two masters. We both know that God is a jealous God. Gay, or born-again. One of the other. But NOT BOTH!

So where do you stand? Answer my question. Are you saying that a gay can be saved and remain "gay?"

 

Cooler Heads Will Prevail

If the homosexual is living/lusting for this lifestyle, they have, then made this their IDOL! I don't believe you can disagree with this? However, from what I've read from you lately, you will probably disagree with me on this too! :smilewinkgrin:

We are not enemies, Zaac. We are brothers trying to make sense of sin and finding ways to bring the Gospel to sinners [all kinds of sinners and sins], so knock off the anger and tough talk. It is unbecoming of you, and it sets you apart from others on this board.

Let me say this in closing: If this board is making you as angry as it seems to be doing, why not find another board to fellowship with? You will never change the folks here.

Look at me. A few weeks ago, I got hammered over the gifts of the Spirit. I was not out to change anyone, or change their minds. Some wanted to change my mind. However, in the end, I'm still here, and friends and brothers with my opposition. I still believe as I do, and they believe as they do, and no one is any worse or better off than before we started that dialogue!

Life is tooooo short to be letting your differences get the best of you and worse than that, come between you and others. We all want to see people saved. We just have different approaches, and I can promise you this. You don't have the direct line to God. I don't have that direct line. And no one on this board has a direct line to God, even if they want to make you believe they do! In the end, we'll all have some comeuppance coming when we get to heaven and hear what God really meant when He said this or that about this and that.! :smilewinkgrin:

Shalom........

 

You're seeing stuff cause I haven't expressed any anger. :smilewinkgrin:

I'm aware of what you believe. I can read what you wrote. And as I've said, it's inconsistent with what Scripture says. But it's your opinion and you're welcome to it.:smilewinkgrin:

I would disagree. There are drug addicts who come to Christ who still struggle with addiction. There are liars who come to Christ and still struggle with lying. So you have no idea if there is no way someone can still be gay and come to Jesus.

And I replied that it's not eroding away at anything any more than all of our other sins. The unrepentance of the Church is a far greater detriment to the moral fabric of our society.

Homosexuality does not need our immediate attention as homosexuality is NOT the problem. It's a symptom of the problem.

The Church should be pointing folks to Jesus. And unless your answer is to point folks to Jesus to deal with homosexual sin, you're wasting your time.

The Church has to be preaching repentance and showing the homosexual and ALL sinners why they need to repent. Giving them JESUS is the ONLY thing that's gonna slow down homosexual sin or any other sin.

I definitely don't advocate these places even being called churches because they aren't. The Church is supposed to submit to Christ. And you can't raise up the homosexual lifestyle as an idol that comes before obedience to what God's word says and be submitting to Christ at the same time so we definitely agree here.

You'll have to please clarify what you mean by associated.

Frankly I don't know why anyone would want to be defined as gay. But there are folks with gay orientations who are attracted to people of the same sex who are not committing sexual acts. God's word doesn't say that attraction is a sin. He says that the sexual acts are the sin.

So we disagree here. People identify as heterosexual before having heterosexual sex. So why would one not be able to identify as gay and not have gay sex? Again, I don't know why anyone would want to do so. But I know folks who do.

I stand where God's word stands. Orientations aren't Biblically sinful. If you can be straight and not having fornicative sex and saved, then you can be gay and not having fornicative sex and saved.

The orientations aren't sinful.

 

I do not disagree with this.

Nope.

Seriously, I don't see where you keep seeing anger and tough talk. My apologies if you do, but I don't see it.:laugh:

Again, I haven't a clue about what you think you're seeing as far as anger goes. I don't get angry about folks or what they do. Folks tend to get angry at me for telling them they are wrong. But that's par for the course.

Umm. Yes I do. And if you are saved, so do you.:thumbsup:

Shalom.

 

Zaac, just one question, if you don't mind.

Would you baptise a homosexual who wants to join your church and tells you that he has no intention of abstaining from his behaviour?

 

I have looked back over my posts in this thread, and I don't believe I have slandered anyone. If I have, I apologize, but I don't recall doing it, nor could I find it. What I did say is:

I think this is important lest we begin to think ourselves above "those dirty homosexuals." We have all done things that are an abomination to God, that are immoral, that are deviant from God's good instructions for our lives.

In other words, it's a danger, for all of us, myself included, when we see other people's sins as worse than our own.

 

Nope. But the same would apply if you told me you were a heterosexual living with your girlfriend with no intentions of moving out.

Now a few questions for you, if you don't mind. Do you ask individuals if they are gay or straight upon counseling them about joining the church? If so, do you ask the straight ones as well as the gay ones if they are sexually active and if so, if they intend to continue being sexually active upon joining the church?

 

That is a pathetic response Zaac. I thought months ago on the politics forum that your continued nonsensical posts were for the single purpose of sowing discord among the brethren, I believe that is exactly what you are doing now.

 

I guess it's not the response you were expecting, huh?:laugh:

And I KNEW months ago that anyone who disagreed with the Brethren's unBiblical stances that always seem to be based on the Brethren's opinions and not Scripture would be deemed a troll or a sower of discord amongst the brethren.

I get it. It's y'alls fish pond and you want to be the one's who always say what is and everyone else should just get on board.

That might work for a lot of the rest of the little soldiers. But I serve at the pleasure of Jesus Christ , and I'm called to be pleasing to Him FIRST.

If the Brethren aren't aligned with the word, then it behooves me why anyone would think I would be aligned with the Brethren.

 

Zaac

Based on your public profile very little is known about you???????

 

Zaac- How do you rectify Proverbs 6:16-19 with your belief that Our Lord looks upon all sin with equal hatred?

 

Wait for it... Wait...for...it...:laugh:

 

It is the ONLY SIN practiced that has even some churches proclaiming that its good thing, the way God made us!

What other Sin is allowed by churches to promote and accept as good thing, natural thing to do?

this "movement" to make this all acceptable and considered normal is straight of out hell!