God, In His Sovereignty ...

Discussion in 'Bible Versions/Translations' started by Rippon, Apr 16, 2010.

  1. Rippon

    Rippon
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    No, this thread doesn't belong in the forum for Baptist Theology/Bible Study. It has a place in this forum.

    Lots of times KJVO advocates have used as an argument that the KJV family is the one and only Word of God because God has so arranged it to be the major translation for so long. Of course they don't have a reply as to why the Vulgate family was around for a whole lot longer and was virtually a monopoly for the majority of Christians.

    Now I know this is not a unique qestion. It has been raised many times before -- but why has the NIV been so dominant for more than 30 years? Has God also providentially seen to it that the NIV be the dominant version for so many around the world -- even to quite a few whose native language isn't English?

    Listen,you have to remain consistent here. If you believe that God providentially made the KJV as the primary translation for so many and for so long -- You have to acknowledge that God in His sovereign manner has also accorded the NIV a like role.

    What are your opinions?
     
  2. Trotter

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    Good luck with that.
     
  3. Mexdeaf

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    I fully expect the ESV to give the NIV a run. It has been around for nearly 10 years now and is mighty popular.
     
  4. TomVols

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    Initial questions:

    First, how long was the KJV truly dominant? To what do we owe this dominance? Was it the strong arm of authorities/govt?

    Second, is the NIV's popularity more a feat due to the multiplicity of translations? IOW, is it more impressive that the NIV had to beat out more translations than the KJV did, esp if it did so fair and square (see above).

    Third, is the NIV popularity equal to the KJV popularity? (this is akin to comparing the 1927 Yankees to the 1976 Big Red Machine).

    BTW, as someone reared in the KJVO movement, I have the script still. I can give you their answers. :)
     
  5. Winman

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    Rippon, you set yourself up like a bowling pin.

    Rippon, I do not acknowledge that God in His sovereign manner has also accorded the NIV a like role.

    Ooooo... that was cruel wasn't it? Sorry, you made that too easy.

    Rippon, why do I have to acknowledge and agree with anything you say? You never acknowledge or agree to any of my arguments.
     
  6. Rippon

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    Is that how I strike you? :)


    Well then, you have just entered into an inconsistency Winman. You will have no right to make one of your primary arguments for the KJV being the only God-ordained translation from now on.

    You have acknowledged my arguments and have disagreed with them.


    I have acknowledged your arguments and have disagreed with them.
     
  7. Winman

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    Rippon, first of all, I was just having a little fun with you there. If you knew me personally you would know I am known for sarcasm and wit. Most enjoy it, but not all. I admit I loved Bugs Bunny when I was a kid and was influenced by him. :tongue3:

    Now I will be serious and try to answer your question. You have a point that the NIV is the best selling Bible at this time. But is that decreed by God? I don't think so. I believe God allows men to do certain things on their own and does not control every little event. Here is scripture I believe shows that.

    Jer 7:31 And they have built the high places of Tophet, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my heart.

    Here the Jews were sacrificing their children to false gods which God said he never commanded them (decreed), neither came it into his heart (desire and will). So I do not agree with those that believe God decreed every little event that takes place, otherwise God would be the author and cause of sin.

    You are correct that the Vulgate family was around for a thousand years. But what good do we see from that? Isn't this age called the Dark Ages? It was not a good time for Christians. Those groups who held other scriptures that disagreed with the Vulgate and refused to baptize their children were tortured and burned at the stake for their faith.

    What do we see with the King James Version? We see the coming out of the Dark Ages, you cannot seperate the KJV from the Reformation. We see the evangelization of the whole world, first through England that became the first truly global super power, and then America. Missionaries took the gospel to nearly every country on earth, and the dominant Bible they carried with them was the KJV. This is historical fact and was a strong argument to me personally that the KJV was the preserved word of God he promised. The NIV cannot say this.

    The NIV has been popular for what? Maybe 30 years now? I haven't seen a great Christian movement in that time that can be attributed to the NIV. Have you? Can you show it? I believe the NIV is popular because it is easier to read, which in some sense is a plus, but in others a negative. A 3rd grade book is easier to read than a book written for college students, but which provides more knowledge?

    The Vulgate and NIV are not necessarily of God. God does not decree error, but he allows it. Man has never been able to explain why God allows evil to prevail at times, but it is obvious he does.
     
    #7 Winman, Apr 17, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 17, 2010
  8. TomVols

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    Depends on the content. A 3rd grade book refuting evolution has more truth than a graduate school text espousing it.

    I believe God always prevails. That's another difference between you and me. I believe in a sovereign, omnipotent God.

    As to the timing of the KJV and influence, etc., that was what I was getting at re: my questions a few posts above.

    You love the KJV...you should love Reformed theology then :laugh:

    Seriously, one could argue numerically that the NIV saw more believers during it's "reign" than the "reign" of the KJV. This is subjectivism and I wonder about the plausibility of it all.
     
  9. Winman

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    The KJV is still dominant today if you consider that most translations into other languages were translated from the KJV. And this 2001 survey shows it is still the dominant Bible when asked which Bible version you own.

    According to this survey the KJV was still the dominant version owned at 54% to 15% by the NIV. And notice the problem people site most with the KJV is that it is difficult to read, just what I thought.

    But should we write simpler Bibles? Should we dumb-down our doctrine? I don't think this is a legitimate reason to write new versions, maybe you do.

    As to your second question, I would imagine the reason the NIV beat out the other MVs again is that it is simpler to read.

    As to your third question, if you are comparing the KJV to the NIV to baseball teams, It is more like the Yankees who have won 27 pennants compared to the Mets with 2.

    I didn't realize you were raised KJVO. Maybe that is the problem, maybe you hold a hostility and resentment towards people who believe in the KJV because of your parents, not the scriptures themselves.
     
    #9 Winman, Apr 17, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 17, 2010
  10. TomVols

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    Given that Bible knowledge and American Christianity is far from what I believe is Biblical, do you really want to give the KJV a shout out? :laugh:
    No.
    No.
    My parents did not raise me KJVO. The IFB church that wouldn't know Biblical truth if it bit them taught this tripe. My father, whose funeral I preached less than 90 days ago, had a fourth grade education and was a lover and liver of the Bible...probably more than you and me put together. But even he understood enough to embrace truth. As does my mother to this day despite her poor health.

    Now, kindly leave them out of this, would you please?

    Are you telling on yourself? Is the reason you attack the Bible a resentment? You've brought this up before.
     
  11. Winman

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    I was not brought up in a religious family whatsoever. When I got saved when I was about 10-11 years old, the Watchtower Society used to come by and my Dad would give them a little donation, they would give my father a few copies of the Watchtower which he gave to me. He didn't know the difference between a JW and an Lutheran, they were all just Christians to him.

    No, I searched out this matter on my own because I wanted to learn the truth. I knew there were many different denominations that taught very different things. And from reading both a KJV and an RSV I could easily see they were very different and did not say the same thing many times. So I did lots of prayer and study. I came to be a KJVO on my own, nobody influenced me. If you knew me personally you would know I am extremely independent. I have never been a follower.

    My Dad also passed away last year and I miss him. I witnessed to him many times, and even got him to go down at an invitation once. I asked him when he came back if he accepted Jesus as his saviour, and he said, "I think I did that once before." Not the most assuring salvation testimony I ever heard, but it gave me some hope. He was a very good man who always treated us well and never thought of himself, but religion was a very private matter to him that he almost never spoke about. Like your Dad, he was a great man and I am thankful that God gave him to be my father.

    It was this statement of yours that caused me to think you were brought up in a KJVO home;

    When someone says "reared" I get the impression they are speaking of how they were raised by their parents. I apologize for my mistake.
     
  12. TomVols

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    Apology accepted, and I understand how the word "reared" would lead you to think it was a parental thing. Like you, I studied this out for myself as well and this led me away not only from the IFB I was part of but from KJVO. God did a wondrous work in my heart to lead me out. Eventually, God led my folks out and they were able to establish a solid testimony in another Bible based Baptist church, where my dad volunteered in every way imaginable until his dying day.

    Like you, I have little love for the RSV (well, if you put a gun to my head and there was only an RSV and say the NRSV or the Message, maybe). :laugh: A prominent local KJVO came to faith in Christ using the RSV when he was in prison. Carried it for years until he came under the tutelage of a prominent KJVO guy. To this day, he refuses to say much about the RSV. Just an interesting tidbit, I guess.
     
  13. Winman

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    I am glad we got that settled quick, I am completely aware that I can be very brash at times. One of my many faults.

    I am getting a little tired, this is very wearing. I will say more on this issue later, but I am going to take a short break on the matter. But I know myself, I will be back.
     
  14. TomVols

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    I used to moderate this forum. My breaks tend to be quite long, lasting for months :laugh: After ten years on this board, we just don't cover new ground all that much. So don't be surprised if you don't see me around until, say, Autumn :)

    I too can be too brash in my zeal for truth. My apologies for coming off unnecessariliy harsh.
     
  15. Mexdeaf

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    Hey now, if y'all start acting like Christians, stop fussin about Bible versions and actually start loving each other then this forums gonna go to pot!
     
  16. Rippon

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    You really hate the NRSV that much? I thought you liked the ESV. The latter is very close to the NRSV --closer than it is to the RSV.
     
  17. TomVols

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    I don't hate the NRSV, I just like the old RSV better. And I'm okay with the ESV. I like it best of the three, but it's not the greatest translation in the world. Just because I'm not TNIVO doesn't mean I'm ESVO :laugh:
     
  18. Rippon

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    Well, from your gun to the head in post#12 one would sure get the impression that you care very little for the NRSV.

    You mean best out of four -- considering you mentioned The Message in your gun-to-the-head example.

    Why, what's wrong with it?

    I'm TNIVP. If you can point me to any TNIVO's I'd like to interview them.
     
  19. TomVols

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    It's an expression, commonly used to describe a situation where one must make a choice.

    I was speaking of translations, particularly of that family. The MSG is not a translation but a paraphrase

    You asked about my problems with the ESV. If you want to discuss that, start a thread. Let's not derail this one....anymore than we already have! :)
     
  20. Rippon

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    Dr. Eugene would be surprised to hear that.He indeed translated into what iin a very free rendering way.Most of the time it doesn't even read even as close as a paraphrase.

    Yes, this does tend to derail my own thread.
     

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