God in three persons...Blessed Trinity?

Discussion in '2000-02 Archive' started by Joseph_Botwinick, Jul 21, 2001.

  1. Joseph_Botwinick

    Joseph_Botwinick
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    It is a great hymn "Holy Holy Holy". Is it true though, this doctrine of the trinity? I believe it to be so. However, there seems to be those on a national level...such as Gwen Shamblin and those in the TBN Charasmatic movement...who do not. I have even encountered a few here on the Baptist Borad such as Theopolitan who do not seem to believe in this trinity thing and the diety of Christ. So, I pose the question to you, is this doctrine Biblical and if so, where is it supported by scripture? If not, why not?

    Joseph
     
  2. Pennsylvania Jim

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    Joseph, your title caught my eye, I LOVE this magnificent hymn. Especially when played on a Presbyterian organ. :D :D

    I will leave it to others to add more substance to the argument, since this is not one to be solved by simply quoting a few definitive proof texts. Just to get started I will say that the Bible is full of pluralities in reference to God, one being in the beginning, in Genesis, when God said "Let US make..." Then in the NT when Jesus equates Himself with God, as well as sending the Comforter. We are to baptize "in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit"
     
  3. Ars

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    For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
    1 John 5:7


    [ July 21, 2001: Message edited by: Dajuid ]
     
  4. Mikayehu

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    The doctrine of the Trinity is not so simple to prove from Scripture. There is no "proof text" except I John 5:7 (which I will refrain from using because of the questions that surround it). But, the doctrine of the Trinity is clearly taught in Scripture.

    1. God is one -- Dt. 6:4 "The Lord our God is one Lord."
    2. The Father is God -- I Cor. 8:6 There is one God the Father."
    3. The Son is God -- Jn. 1:1-3, 14-18 -- There are a multitude of references which could be multiplied here. Divine names (Rom. 9:5; Isaiah 9:6; Jer. 23:5-6; Rev. 1:8), attributes (Mic. 5:2; Rev. 1:8, 11-13; Heb. 13:8; Jn. 5:26; 8:58), works (Jn. 1:3; Col. 1:16-17; Heb. 1:2, 10; Heb. 1:3; Col. 1:17; Acts 20:28; Jn. 13:18; 15:16; Jn. 10:16; Eph. 5:26; Jn. 15:26; 16:7; Jn. 10:28; Jn. 5:21, 22; Acts 17:31), and worship (Jn. 14:1; Acts 10:21; Ps. 2:12 [compare Jer. 17:5]; Heb. 14:1; Acts 10:21; Ps. 2:12; I Cor. 1:2; Acts 7:59) are all ascribed to Christ.
    4. The Holy Spirit is God -- Acts 5:3-5 -- Again, He is called God (2 Cor. 3:17; Acts 5:3-4), Divine attribute are ascribed to Him (Heb. 9:14; Ps 139:7; I Cor. 2:10; Zec. 4:6; Rom. 8:11; 15:19; Is. 57:15), He performs divine acts (Gen. 1:2; Rom. 8:11; I Pet. 3:18; Jn. 6:63; 2 Tim. 3:16; 2 Pet. 1:10-11, 21, He is mentioned alongside the Father and Son (Mt. 28L19; 2 Cor. 13:14), and Scripture's definition of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit proves His deity (Mt. 12:31-32).
    5. The Father is not the Son; the Son is not the Father; and neither of them is the Holy Spirit -- Gn. 1:26; Is. 48:16
    (I know there will be a few disagreements in regard to some of these passages, but most of them are unassailable.)

    So, since there is one God, and since the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God, and since these three are clearly distinguished in Scripture, we are left with the truth of the Trinity.
     
  5. Dr. Bob

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    Out here in Mormon country they have literally changed the words of that great hymn to match their aberrent theology. The last two lines now go: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Holy, Holy, Holy, Merciful and Mighty;
    God in His glory, blessed be His Name.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Support for the triune godhead include:
    *Plurality of the name of God (always used with a singular verb - such as "In the beginning Elohim (he) created the heavens . . "
    *Plurality of terms adoring God - exactly as the song indicates holy/holy/holy. Even to Muslims, Allah is not thrice holy.
    *Baptism and Transfiguration of Christ where all three persons of the godhead were present
    *Command for us to baptize new disciples into the name (singular) of the Father, Son and Spirit

    I am sure others will have more . . .
     
  6. Mikayehu

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    I posted earlier on why I dogmatically believe in the doctrine of the Trinity, but I wanted to note an objection to one of Dr. Bob's proofs. The plural "Elohim" is not a very strong argument, and I would suggest not using it when arguing for the Trinity. The Hebrew language often uses plurals when referring to something that is singular. For example, the plural is used in reference to a master or a lord, even when it is clearly only one human master (Is. 1:3; I Kgs. 1:43). So, while "Elohim" may have a hint of the Trinity, it is more likely that it is an "intensive" or a "majestic" plural, intensifying the strength and majesty of God. Interestingly, conservatives typically take this "majestic plural" view of Elohim, while liberals often try to make it numerically plural in order to show that the worship of one God somehow evolved from a worship of many gods.

    (And no, I'm not saying Dr. Bob is a liberal [​IMG])
     
  7. Baptist Mom

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    Joseph,

    Can I be totally honest with you????

    I saw the name of your post and I was looking for some encouragement but there you were again tearing others down. Can't you put it to bed???

    I have totally separated myself from the Program Gwen is involved in and we are having a wonderful time at our church using the Word of God and the principles I used in that program to overcome the stronghold of food and I would encourage you to do the same at your church.

    But do we constantly have to bring those people up who we disagree with. I really think the devil is having a field day with this. Instead of lifting up the name of the Lord we are constantly putting others down and judging them. I may agree with you why you don't agree with them but I don't agree about this bring up their names and finding topics to discuss just to put them down.

    Now someone mentioned 1 John 5:7 and that is a perfect verse about the trinity. By the way I do believe in the trinity and I believe that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are one.

    Another verse that does not specifically say anything about the trinity but I think really implies it is Genesis 1:26.
    Let US make man in OUR image, after OUR likeness...
    To me this implies that the trinity was there at the time of creation.

    I am in no way trying to come to you and try to cause problems or discontent. These things I really say in love I just get tired of people always tearing others down. Just encourage others by the Word and leave the names of those not going in the truth alone enough has been said about them.

    God Bless.
    Cyndi
     
  8. Pastor KevinR

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    Cyndi, Joseph is simply denouncing false heretical teachers, as Jesus did, and Paul too! see the entire book of Galatians. This is our biblical mandate. It is no violation of Matthew 7:1. ;)
     
  9. Baptist Mom

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    Joseph,

    I don't see it as previously mentioned. To me it seems as if you have a personal vandetta against Gwen Shamblin and bring up subjects to tear hear and her "so called" ministries down.

    I probably agree with you 98% of the time doctrinally. But I come here for encouragement and it seems as if you are making an occassion to bring her down.
    Why don't you start praying for her that the Lord would cause her to come to the truth.

    I will tell you I am no longer involved in her program because of her beliefs but I have started a group in our church for strongholds using the Bible to conquer our strongholds. The Bible is the answer to every problem. Not these groups for weight control. You don't need to go to a group to lose weight just go to the Lord and get some of the Christians who struggle with some areas in your life to join it will be a tremendous blessing to you and your assembly.

    All I am saying is that just give Gwen a rest and begin to fervently pray for her that she would see the truth.

    I am in no way upset with you or angry with you I just would like to hear some encouragemtnt once and a while.

    Cyndi
     
  10. Joseph_Botwinick

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    BM,

    I am glad to hear about your group that you have started at church. I think that would make a great thread to find out more specifics...why don't you start one and tell us more about it. [​IMG]

    However, I will never stay silent about false doctrines. If I find something that is unscriptural, I will continue to talk about it. I do have a personal vendetta against the false teachings of Shamblin, Theopolitan, and the rest of the TBN crowd. Not against them, but their teachings. I pray that God will save these people. But I look at their teachings as something that needs to be defeated. There are too many young Christians out there who are easily seduced into these pagan religions and they need to be set free. There are those here who claim there is no trinity and that Jesus is not God. I wish they would speak up and tell us why and let's discuss the issue openly and honestly.

    I will not apologize for standing up for the truth and for discussing different beliefs, however. There are many different forums within this board and probably at least 1000 threads for you to chose to be uplifted and encouraged. If this brings you down, maybe you need to go to another thread or start a new one to encourage others yourself. Maybe that is your gift is encouragement. Mine seems to be research and exposing false teachers. God works differently through different people. Let's respect those differences and go on.

    [ July 22, 2001: Message edited by: JBotwinick ]
     
  11. John Wells

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    I won't repeat the many good references already given. Another is:

    "There is one body and one Spirit-just as you were called to one hope when you were called-one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all. But to each one of us grace has been given as Christ apportioned it. (Eph. 4:4-7)
    May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all. (2 Cor 13:14 NIV)

    The Apostle Paul gave numerous benedictions that indicate in his thinking, that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit were one, yet distinct. The doctrine points to a transcendent God who could yet simultaneously become a human being and then after the resurrection also indwell other human beings (that is, the Holy Spirit). He is a God great enough to rule the universe, caring enough to live a fully human life and intimate enough to live in each believer. This is the reality that the doctrine points to.
     
  12. Ars

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by wellsjs:
    The doctrine points to a transcendent God who could yet simultaneously become a human being and then after the resurrection also indwell other human beings (that is, the Holy Spirit). He is a God great enough to rule the universe, caring enough to live a fully human life and intimate enough to live in each believer. This is the reality that the doctrine points to.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    AMEN!!!!!!!!
     
  13. Baptist Mom

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    Joseph,

    I actually agree with you but I just get tired of hearing about it. Sorry I don't mean to offend you.

    But are the people here actually the ones who need to know about it???? Just a question. I think that the people who are using the program and who are involved in these groups are the ones who need to hear it not the ones walking in the truth.

    I don't know.

    Yes maybe I will start a thread at some time in the future explaining what we are doing.

    I do appreciate your doctrinal views and I do agree with you more than you realize.

    God Bless
    Cyndi
     
  14. Pennsylvania Jim

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    Then on the other hand, there are those (ahem) who attack many of the things that we stand for, and many on this board make every imanigineable excuse to cover for them, and even to support their evil work.
     
  15. Baptist Mom

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    I understand that. I was just saying it would be good to hear something positive and uplifting once in a while.

    Those of us who are trying to do right do appreciate these kind of insights.

    But we need some encouragement too not always knocking this one or that one down.

    God Bless.

    Cyndi
     
  16. Lorelei

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JBotwinick:
    So, I pose the question to you, is this doctrine Biblical and if so, where is it supported by scripture? If not, why not?

    Joseph
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    This is exactly what we should do if we disagree with someone on something!

    Thanks so much for starting the thread, I am learning and taking notes. The Trinity is one of those things, I believe, but is hard to explain. I appreciate everyone's insight! [​IMG]


    ~Lorelei
     
  17. KeeperOfMyHome

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    I have not been keeping up with this thread, so this may be something someone else posted already. However, it is worth repeating. It has to do with John 10, where Jesus is talking of being the Good Shepherd. In verse 28, He says that He gives His sheep eternal life, the sheep will never perish, and no one is able to pluck them from His hand.

    Then, in verse 29, we read that the Father gave the sheep to the Shepherd, and no one is able to pluck them from the Father's hand!

    So, my thought is . . . whose hand are we in? Obviously we can't belong to two different Gods/gods at one time. The answer is given in verse 30 when Jesus says I and my Father are one.

    Is this the same as saying Jesus and the Father are "one in the same" or "one and the same" as the old saying goes? I believe that is exactly what Jesus is saying from these verses. To be in the Father's hand is to be in the Son's hand. [​IMG]

    We belong to one God who happens to be at work in different ways . . . and He worked as the Son by coming to earth in the flesh (i.e. He is the fulness of the godhead bodily and image of the invisible God).
     
  18. John Wells

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    Hi Baptist Mom,

    You said, "I was just saying it would be good to hear something positive and uplifting once in a while."

    The spirited debate of critical biblical doctrine is positive and uplifting. Even though the tone may be "matter-of-fact" and a little stern at times, we are being "diligent in the Word," and "iron sharpening iron." Don't let a little heated disagreement agitate you . . . it's good for the soul! :confused: :mad: :eek: :D
     
  19. Baptist Mom

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    I am not against disagreement. It is just everytime I open many posts and some from the same people it is always critcizing someone. I just think not only should we be aware what is going on but we also should encourage one another and put positive things into others lives. Negativity all the time is discouraging. I am not saying we should not be aware of things just that all the time is not good either.

    God Bless.
     
  20. John Wells

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    Baptist Mom raises a valid point, and in our zealous pursuit of truth, we should oft' remember these words:

    And the Lord's servant must not quarrel; instead, he must be kind to everyone, able to teach, not resentful. Those who oppose him he must gently instruct, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth, and that they will come to their senses and escape
    from the trap of the devil, who has taken them captive to do his will. (2 Tim 2:24-26 NIV)

    Accept him whose faith is weak, without passing judgment on disputable matters. One man's faith allows him to eat everything, but another man, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. The man who eats everything must not look down on him who does not, and the man who does not eat everything must not condemn the man who does, for God has accepted him. (Rom 14:1-3 NIV)


    [ July 26, 2001: Message edited by: wellsjs ]
     

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