God is Just in Justifying the Ungodly !

Discussion in 'Calvinism/Arminianism Debate' started by savedbymercy, Jun 16, 2015.

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  1. savedbymercy

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    Rom 3:24-26

    24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

    25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

    26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.


    Rom 4:5

    5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

    God is Just in Justifying the Ungodly [while actually being ungodly] because of the redemption provided for them in Christ Jesus their Surety Head.

    Those Christ died for, His death alone for them put away sin and the consequences thereof, all of its penalties, death included, by making propitiation/satisfaction by His Blood, which is again the propitiation in Vs 25

    By this [His Blood] God's Wrath has been appeased, not by their Faith in His Blood, but by His Blood alone God was appeased on their behalf ! And because of this, Christ's blood has so washed away the sins of theirs and its effects, its now so , as if they never sinned, and they are completely Righteous before Him, all of which is solely based on His Precious Blood, and So God Justifies them, even while and when they themselves are personally born into this world in a ungodly state, when they are children of wrath as others Eph 2:3, and while they are with enmity in their minds and heart against God Rom 8:7

    7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

    Now again, while those Christ died for are in this state of ungodliness, because of Christ's Blood, they are Justified, made Righteous before God, Hence, God Justifieth the Ungodly !
     
  2. savedbymercy

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    God is Just in Justifying the Ungodly !2

    Now its only True that God is Justifying the Ungodly, only if indeed they have been Justified before Him while being Ungodly !

    The Death/Blood of Christ is the basis of God Justifying them, not because of their believing, being obedient, but while being unbelieving and disobedient, and thats why it is also stated that they have been reconciled to God while being enemies Rom 5:10, which is just another way of stating that God Justifys the Ungodly, while being ungodly, and until this is understood and embraced, we have no ideal what Justification by Grace is all about, nor do we propery understand Rom 4:5 and the blessed Truth that God justifys the Ungodly; And all who have been Justifed by God while ungodly, based upon the redemption in Christ Jesus, all of them shall be given the Spirit of Faith to see it, realize it, and believe in Jesus for it, Hence Paul goes on to say that God is Just and the Justifier of them which are now believing in Jesus, thats because by new birth they have been given faith to believe the fact that they had been Justifed, reconciled to God by Christ's blood while being enemies and ungodly !
     
  3. savedbymercy

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    God is Just in Justifying the Ungodly !3

    God Justifieth the Ungodly ! Rom 4:5

    5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

    Now when are those being Justified as the Ungodly ? Is it before they believe or have Faith in Christ ? The answer is Yes, for while they are being ungodly sinners, Christ has died for them Rom 5:6-8

    6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.

    7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.

    8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

    His death Justified them as Ungodly , when Ungodly !

    Remember Paul says after saying it is God that Justifieth in Rom 8:33, in Vs 34 He said it was because Christ died Rom 8:33-34

    33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

    34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

    When Christ died, it Justified the Ungodly He died for !

    Not only that, Belief of the Truth is an act of godliness Titus 1:1

    Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;

    So if He Justified them when they believed, He Justified them while they were acting Godly, which overthrows the very foundation of the Truth of Rom 4:5 that He Justifies the Ungodly !

    Regarding Rom 5:6-8 its plain from the passage that Christ died for them while being ungodly, and again that's why they were Justified, because Christ died for them, and by that fact alone, they shall be made Righteous, or made Just, which is the same as Justified, So those Christ died for are made righteous / Justified while they are ungodly sinners in unbelief, to the credit of Christ's Death and God's Grace !
     
  4. savedbymercy

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    Believers were Justified/Made Righteous while Ungodly !

    Believers were Justified/Made Righteous while Ungodly ! This Truth the unbelieving religious world cannot receive, That all for whom Christ died, that fact alone, apart from any obedience of their own, and even while they were operating by a spirit of disobedience as Per Eph 2:2

    2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

    Yes even while they were in the midst of walking according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, even then, solely by the death of Christ, were they made Righteous, and Justified before God, in their ungodly manner of lifestyle !

    Thats why Paul says that God was Justifying the Ungodly Rom 4:5 !

    Paul in Rom 5:19 teaches the same thing, that by Christ's one obedience unto death, for the many whom He died for are made Righteous, or Justified !

    Now to prove that this being made Righteous and or Justified before God is prior to any acts of Gospel Obedience from the sinner, and while they are yet ungodly, we will look at Rom 4:25 where the proof lies in the witness of Christ's resurrection from the dead, Rom 4:25

    25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification !

    Now exactly how does this prove this vital gracious Truth ? Its simple, by the three letter word for, a preposition the greek word dia which means:


    i.by reason of


    ii.on account of


    iii.because of for this reason

    v.on this account

    for sake of

    Now, Paul says #1 that Christ was delivered for [on account of] our offenses, which applies to everyone that He was delivered to death for, on account of their sins/offences !

    Now the same ones it is said that He was raised again for [on account of] their Justification !

    There it is, His being raised again is a testification that His death for them was their Justification before God.

    That word Justification is the greek word dikaiōsis:


    I.the act of God declaring men free from guilt and acceptable to him


    II.abjuring to be righteous, justification

    Hence this is God's solemn affirmation that the death of Christ has made them He died for Righteous, and freed them from all guilt before Him !

    Now, if this Resurrection of Christ took place in 33 ad, affirming the Justification of those He died for, then when a future believer[say in 1900] is born a sinner by nature, ungodly, and under the control of that spirit which worketh in the disobedient Eph 2:2, they have already been declared Righteous/Not guilty before God by the Resurrection of Christ, centuries before in 33 ad, so they were born in sin already Justified and Righteous before God, they just dont know it yet !

    And to say otherwise is a rejection of the Testimony of Christ's Resurrection, which is a Gospel Truth 1 Cor 15:1-4

    Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;

    2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

    3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

    4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

    So here are the alternatives, we either believe that those Christ died for were Justified before God, made Righteous before Him by it, or we reject the Gospel Testimony and remain in unbelief !
     
  5. Deacon

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    Is God "just" in justifying the ungodly?

    Simple answer, NO!

    God was merciful and gracious in justifying the ungodly
    through the work of his son
    who accepted the will of the Father
    and bore the dues of our sin in our place.

    The punishment demanded by justice was transfered from the ungodly to the holy one.

    Rob
     
  6. savedbymercy

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    Did you read and understand my points made ?
     
  7. Deacon

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    You're using "churchy" words that make an obvious point obscure.

    I was just adding to your post with another question.

    Rob
     
  8. savedbymercy

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    Evasion as to be expected!
     
  9. Sapper Woody

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    Disagreement is not evasion.
     
  10. savedbymercy

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    Disagreement of what?
     
  11. Sapper Woody

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    If someone disagrees with what you post, it isn't automatically evasion or incomprehension. But, like a broken record, that's all you have to say.



    "Go over the points I made to make sure you understood them".



    Or:



    "Evasion".



    No, it's not either. Learn to discuss things.
     
  12. savedbymercy

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    What points did I post that they disagreed with? Explain the points to me they disagreed with of mine?
     
  13. savedbymercy

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    Justification from sin is prior to Faith in Christ !

    Justification from sin is prior to Faith in Christ , for the Justified; simply because the laying of their sins upon Christ was prior to their believing in Him, and the Laying of their sins upon Christ did Justify them from their sins, since when they were laid on Him, they could not be also laid upon them, and their sins condemned Him and not them. Those Christ died for, their sins and the punishment they accrued for them, have been legally taken away, even before any work of Grace begins in them by the Spirit of God !
     
  14. savedbymercy

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    Are these under condemnation also ?

    Jn 3:18

    18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

    Lets be more specific with the question, are the Elect of God, the Sheep in a state of Unregeneracy and unbelief, are they as the non elect, the goats under the sentence of condemnation by God ? Are they already condemned ? The answer is absolutely NO, and here's why. The sentence of condemnation for their sins and unbelief included has been laid upon Christ for Him to die for it. See Christ died because He was under the Condemnation of the sins, offences, trespasses of those He died for. The Cross was actually the punishment of all their sins and their condemnation. The Lord Jesus Christ hath taken away, removed from God's sight all their condemnation;

    Wheras for the goats, the non elect He has not, He never knew them ! Yes in a state Unregeneracy and unbelief and stubbornness the elect are not condemned, in fact they are reconciled to God by His Death Rom 5:10 !

    Yes in themselves, in a unregenerate state the elect do sin, are in themselves guilty of sin, their hearts even condemn them for the same 1 Jn 3:20, and they are most deserving of Gods condemnation and wrath as others are [ the non elect goats], but yet for Christ's Sake God cannot condemned them without being guilty of injustice.

    But this is not true of the non elect during unregenercy, they are condemned in that state and under Gods [unpropitiated,unappeased] wrath ! Jn 3:18,36 !

    BTW if any be under Gods wrath Jn 3:36

    36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

    Then that automatically means they don't belong to this World 1 Jn 2:2

    2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

    Its impossible for the wrath of God to be abiding on one, who Christ has been the propitiation for their sins ! To say so would be a contradiction !
     
  15. savedbymercy

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    Being Justified by His Blood apart from our Faith !

    Rom 5:9

    9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

    Being Justified by His Blood apart from our Faith ! Now false religion denies and discards this sacred truth, that initially and to begin with, that Justification before God, freedeom from all condemnation and death due to sin, is solely by the Blood of Christ alone, and that is the testimony of the text Rom 5:9, and that its true even in light of Rom 5:1, for Justification by the Blood of Christ/and or the Obedience of Christ, which lead to His Death Phil 2:8;Rom 5:19, tis antecedent to ones God given Faith, in fact, its the very thing that is revealed to Faith, that one, prior to believing, had been Justified by the Blood of Christ before Gods Law and Justice.

    A particular OT scripture is enlightening here which reads Ex 12:13

    13 And the blood shall be to you for a token upon the houses where ye are: and when I see the blood, I will pass over you, and the plague shall not be upon you to destroy you, when I smite the land of Egypt.

    God passing over in Judgement and destruction is due to Him seeing the Blood of the slain lambs, not because of anything else, the word passover is the heb word pacach and means:

    halt , spring over ,A primitive root; to hop, i.e. (figuratively) skip over (or spare);

    Remember when God said to Abraham this Gen 18:24,26

    24 Peradventure there be fifty righteous within the city: wilt thou also destroy and not spare the place for the fifty righteous that are therein?

    And the Lord said, If I find in Sodom fifty righteous within the city, then I will spare all the place for their sakes.

    The Idea is God will not destroy but spare from destruction, and this God would not do to them He sees the Blood of the Lamd in begalf of ! Thats what Rom 5:9 claims Justified by Blood of the Lamb, saved from wrath and or destruction !

    See also Joel 2:17;Jonah 4:11; Mal 3:17

    17 And they shall be mine, saith the Lord of hosts, in that day when I make up my jewels; and I will spare them, as a man spareth his own son that serveth him.

    Take that statement and remember what God said of Israel right before the Exodous Ex 4:23

    23 And I say unto thee, Let my son go, that he may serve me: and if thou refuse to let him go, behold, I will slay thy son, even thy firstborn.

    If God has seen that Christ, His Lamb of God has shed His Blood for you, then He passes over you in Judgment and condemnation and destruction and wrath, we can never be of those who Paul writes of here 2 Thess 1:9

    Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

    And that is not because He sees our Faith, but solely because He sees the Blood of the Lamb ! Ex 12:13

    13 And the blood shall be to you for a token upon the houses where ye are: and when I see the blood, I will pass over you, and the plague shall not be upon you to destroy you, when I smite the land of Egypt.
     
  16. savedbymercy

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    Him that Justifieth the Ungodly !

    Rom 4:5

    5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. This means God is Justifying them while they are being Ungodly, not when they are believing, but while Ungodly !

    Now who are these Ungodly God is Justifying ? Why its those that Christ has died for Rom 5:6

    6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.

    The Ungodly Christ died for, and His dying for them is how God Justifieth them ! The word ungodly is the greek word asebēs and means:

    I.destitute of reverential awe towards God, condemning God, impious

    irreverent, i.e. (by extension) impious or wicked:—ungodly (man).

    This is their practical state when God is Justifying them by Christ dying for them.

    Notice the words Christ died in Rom 5:Vs 6b

    6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.

    The fact alone that Christ died Justified them, Rom 8:33-34

    33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

    34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

    Also notice that after dying, He is risen again, which rising again was because of our Justification Rom 4:25

    25 Who was delivered for our offences[died], and was raised again for[because of] our justification.

    So His resurrection is evidence that those He died for are Justified while they are Ungodly, simply because He died for them !
     
  17. savedbymercy

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    Justified while enemies by the Blood of Christ alone !

    Rom 5:9-10

    9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

    10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

    Listen, being Justified by His Blood in Vs 9 is the very exact thing as being reconciled to God by His Death, its no difference except the verbiage . Now it should be observed to the credit of Christ's Death alone, that the reconciliation to God occurred as the believers were still in a unconverted state and enemies Rom 5:10, so likewise the Justification before God in Vs 9 did as well, it occurred while in a unconverted state and while enemies. This emphasis is made by Paul to show what special a blessing it is for Christ to die for us, it makes us righteous [Vs 9] and it restores us into the favor of God [being exempt from any of Gods Wrath as it is on others] and again, the only ground this blessing is pertinent to us is the Death/Blood of Christ and His Faith/Faithfulness !

    Ones own Faith plays no part in this matter because the fact of Justification before God and Reconciliation to God occurred while they being enemies ! Rom 5:9-10 !
     
  18. savedbymercy

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    Just, and the Justifier of him which believeth in Jesus !

    Rom 3:26

    To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

    Now what is Paul Preaching here ? Is he teaching that one must believe on Jesus Christ as a condition in order for God to Justify them ? God forbid, for that is Justification by the work of man, believing is an act of man ! Man is not and cannot be Just before God by any act of his, but Justification before God is always conditioned upon the act or actions of Jesus Christ !

    Now Christ's action can be described as His Obedience Rom 5:19, or His Faithfulness to God Heb 2:17;3:2, and its this that God Justifies a person or persons.

    In the original the words "which believeth in Jesus " are in the genitive case, which means Jesus Faith is being spoken of, and a better translation would read, He is Just and Justifying he which has the Faith of Jesus .

    In other words, God s Just in Justifying those who have Christ Suretyship Faithfulness charged to them !

    Here are some translations that capture the genitive :

    in the forbearance of God, for the showing forth of His righteousness in the present time, for Him to be just, and justifying the one of the faith of Jesus. berean literal bible

    He wanted to demonstrate at the present time that he himself is righteous and that he justifies anyone who has the faithfulness of Jesus. International Standard Version

    This was also to demonstrate his righteousness in the present time, so that he would be just and the justifier of the one who lives because of Jesus' faithfulness. NET Bible

    manifesting in this time his righteousness that he only be the just one and the justifier of him that is of the faith of Jesus. Jubilee Bible 2000

    Through the forbearance of God, for the shewing of his justice in this time; that he himself may be just, and the justifier of him, who is of the faith of Jesus Christ. Douay-Rheims Bible

    for [the] shewing forth of his righteousness in the present time, so that he should be just, and justify him that is of [the] faith of Jesus.
    Darby Bible Translation

    See all whom Christ represented as Surety partake of His Surety Headship Faithfulness, just like all whom Adam represented took part in his surety headship unfaithfulness !

    And since Christ by His Suretyship Faithfulness both obeyed Gods Law perfectly for His People He represented, as well as suffered their wages of death for their unfaithfulness, that cleared them of all guilt and declared them Righteous before God !
     
  19. Squire Robertsson

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    I'm not allowing the posting of "sermon" outlines.
     
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