God Is Not a Glorified Bookkeeper!

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by OldRegular, Dec 30, 2013.

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  1. OldRegular

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    There are some on this Forum who falsely, and I believe deliberately, reject Scripture and try to teach that God is unable to keep those who belong to Him, those for whom Jesus Christ died. Rather these people would have us believe that God is simply a “glorified bookkeeper, endlessly erasing and writing names in the Book of Life.

    Salvation is a supernatural event that occurs only once and lasts throughout eternity.

    Consider what Scripture tells us about Salvation:

    John 3:3-8
    3. Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
    4. Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother’s womb, and be born?
    5. Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
    6. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
    7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
    8. The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.


    Jesus Christ tells us that in order for a person to enter the Kingdom of God he must be born again through an act of the Spirit of God.

    Different expressions are employed in the Scriptures to denote the change that occurs at the new birth or regeneration:

    It is taking away the heart of stone, and giving a heart of flesh, a new heart.

    Ezekiel 36:26. 26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.


    It is putting the law in the heart.

    Hebrews 8:10. 10 For this [is] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:


    It is quickening or making alive.

    John 6:63. 63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, [they] are spirit, and [they] are life.

    John 5:21. 21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth [them]; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.


    t is a resurrection from the spiritual death.

    John 5:25. 25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.


    John Dagg notes [Manual of Theology, pages 277ff]: “So great is the change produced, that the subject of it is called a new creature as if proceeding, like Adam, directly from the creating hand of God; and he is said to be renewed, as being restored to the image of God, in which man was originally formed”

    2 Corinthians 5:17. Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

    Man, being “born again” is united with, or enters into a union, with Jesus Christ. This union of the ‘true believer’ with Jesus Christ is the clear teaching of Scripture. Jesus Christ in the Gospel of John presents this crucial doctrine as follows:

    John 6:53-56, KJV
    53. Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
    54. Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
    55. For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.
    56. He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.


    Notice verse 56: He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him. Here we have very clearly expressed the union of the ‘true believer’ with Jesus Christ: He .... dwelleth in me, and I in him.

    At this point perhaps we should understand that though certain of mankind are elected to eternal salvation and that salvation is certain to occur as shown in John 6:37: All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out, until regeneration occurs we are among those who are dead in trespasses and sins,[Ephesians 2:1 ] and walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience [Ephesians 2:2].

    We read of this union further in the Gospel of John:

    John 14:19,20
    19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.
    20 At that day ye shall know that I [am] in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.


    And then in the high priestly prayer of Jesus Christ not long before his sacrificial death which not only speaks of the union with Jesus Christ of those who are “born again” but also of their eternal security, that is, unless one chooses to believe that God the Father would reject the prayer of the incarnate Son, Jesus Christ:

    John 17:20-26
    20. Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
    21. That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
    22. And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
    23. I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
    24. Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.
    25. O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me.
    26. And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them.



    What does Scripture tells us further about those who are “born again” who replaced in “union with Jesus Christ”?

    John 6:35-40
    35. And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.
    36. But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.
    37. All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
    38. For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
    39. And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
    40. And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.


    John 10:27-30
    27. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
    28. And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any [man] pluck them out of my hand.
    29. My Father, which gave [them] me, is greater than all; and no [man] is able to pluck [them] out of my Father's hand.
    30. I and [my] Father are one.



    And then the Apostle Paul tells us:

    Romans 8:38, 39
    38. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
    .39. Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.


    Romans 8:28-30
    28. And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
    29. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
    30. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.


    And then the Apostle John writes:

    1 John 3:1, 2
    1. Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
    2. Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.


    Scripture is abundantly clear that Those who are “the saved” are brought into union with Jesus Christ and are given eternal life to be enjoyed in the presence of God. Yet, as noted initially, there are some on this Forum who falsely, and I believe deliberately, reject Scripture and try to teach that God is unable to keep those who belong to Him, those for whom Jesus Christ died. Rather these people would have us believe that God is simply a “glorified bookkeeper, endlessly erasing and writing names in the Book of Life.
     
    #1 OldRegular, Dec 30, 2013
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  2. OldRegular

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    God is not a Glorified Bookkeeper, Part 2

    Scripture is abundantly clear that Those who are “the saved” are brought into union with Jesus Christ and are given eternal life to be enjoyed in the presence of God. Yet, as noted earlier, there are some on this Forum who falsely, and I believe deliberately, reject Scripture and try to teach that God is unable to keep those who belong to Him, those for whom Jesus Christ died. Rather these people would have us believe that God is simply a “glorified bookkeeper, endlessly erasing and writing names in the Book of Life.

    Philip Edgcumbe Hughes, an Anglican clergyman, in his commentary The Book of Revelation commenting on the following Scripture

    Revelation 3:5. I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

    writes [page 57] very eloquently and convincingly to dispute this heretical belief, as follows:

     
    #2 OldRegular, Dec 30, 2013
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  3. evangelist-7

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    Quick answer to thou ...

    Thou art ignoring the fact that God created man with a free will
    ... to choose to do whatever the hell he chooses to doest, every second actually!

    'Twas always God's desire to create His angels and humans with free will,
    i.e. He never desired to create robots to love Him, obey Him, etc.!

    It doesn't matter is what spiritual condition man is in,
    he always has his free will to obey God, follow God, etc.

    Ain't NO human robots here (on earth)!

    And BTW, this is the obvious reason for all of those warnings to BACs:
    "Hey, choose to STOP sinning, etc. or else!"

    However, this is much too deep for thouest to comprehendeth.

    Hence the short reply.

    Just be honest and exclaim, "Nay razbeerum!"

    .
     
    #3 evangelist-7, Dec 31, 2013
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  4. OldRegular

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    E-7

    If you have comments on the Scripture I posted then present them. But don't expect a response to your posts when you use language such as the following which I emphasize:

     
  5. steaver

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    The longer he post here, the more revealing his true character and the more and more doubt cast upon his purpose here. As I said once before, either he is just a babe in Christ or he has yet to meet Him. I think he is just doing a religion.
     
  6. BobRyan

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    Book of Remembrance Malachi 3:16
    Book of Life - Ps 69:28, Phil 4:3, Rev 3:5 13:8
    Books of Record - (deeds written in them) - Rev 20:12,

    Deeds that will be brought up in the day of Judgment.

    2Cor 5:10 "shall give an account for the deeds done in the body whether they be good or evil"
    Matt 12:36-37 "give an account for every word spoken"'

    The court of haven sits - and "the books were opened" Dan 7:9-10 at the exact time predicted in Daniel 7.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #6 BobRyan, Dec 31, 2013
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  7. DHK

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    When you use these references and use them especially pointing to the Great White Throne Judgement as described in Revelation 20:11-15, then you make God look like a foolish old man with a long white beard, quaint wire-rimmed glasses hanging off the tip of his nose as he scrolls through a voluminous book with pen in hand, looking for names and the works of each beside them.

    What a foolish picture of God Omnipotent and Omniscient, the Creator of all things.
    He knows your every thought and deed, as He knows every though and deed of every man that has ever lived, lives and ever will live. He does not need to "investigate" anything. To suggest such is blasphemy and contrary to his attribute of omniscience.
    You make God a man; less than God!
    He has no need of investigation; He is God Almighty; Omnipotent, Omniscient, and reigns forever and ever.

    To you he is just a man! What blasphemy.
    To you he must investigate! What blasphemy!
    To you he is not all-knowing! What blasphemy!

    You have a picture of one who is less than God. It is blasphemous.
     
  8. OldRegular

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    I agree and think his purpose is to cause trouble!
     
  9. OldRegular

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    I have shown you Scripture showing that God keeps eternally secure those who belong to Him because of the saving work of Jesus Christ. You cannot refute this truth with Scripture. Therefore, you make the Word of God a lie when you continue your posts which have nothing to do with one who has been saved losing their salvation.
     
  10. OldRegular

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    His mental picture of the Ancient of Days from Daniel is apparently that which you describe and Ryan is still hung up there.
     
  11. BobRyan

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    The man-made-tradition of eternal security that you are making up here - requires that you ignore key Bible doctrine in Matt 18, Matt 6, Romans 11, 1Cor 6 -- and also the books of record that the Bible mentions.

    Such as --



    On the contrary - you invented a false accusation and then proceeded to "not support it" with actual fact.

    Were we simply supposed to "not notice"??

    Do you really think that you can dismiss these Bible texts with mere railing accusation?

    back to the topic of the Investigative Judgment as we find it in places like Daniel 7:9-10 and the books that are used in judgment in both OT and NT.

    In Dan 7:10 the "books are opened" so also in Rev 20:12.

    Book of Remembrance Malachi 3:16
    Book of Life - Ps 69:28, Phil 4:3, Rev 3:5 13:8
    Books of Record - (deeds written in them) - Rev 20:12,

    Deeds that will be brought up in the day of Judgment.

    2Cor 5:10 "shall give an account for the deeds done in the body whether they be good or evil"
    Matt 12:36-37 "give an account for every word spoken"'

    The court of haven sits - and "the books were opened" Dan 7:9-10 at the exact time predicted in Daniel 7.

    The tradition of OSAS is refuted in the area of "forgiveness revoked" as we already saw in places like Ezek 18 and Matt 18 and Matt 6.

    The debunking of the OSAS tradition does not require that all mankind be lost - or that all fail to persevere firm unto the end - the way some apparently imagine the case to be.

    The argument is not that Christ randomly selects some of the saved to be tossed aside as some of the arguments for OSAS imagine when they try to misstate the case against OSAS.

    The fact that the promise of eternal life can be revoked is a Bible detail that OSAS does not survive.

    Romans 2 points out the scenario that "Results in eternal life" and so the OSAS argument simply ignores it.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  12. BobRyan

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    Then I SHOW that the OT concept of judgment and the NT concept of Judgment BOTH dictate that the books of heaven are used in judgment and that the things IN the books are being taken into account.

    The rather nonsensical idea that the books are opened in judgment but the information they contain is ignored in judgment is the sort of hollow argument needed to prop up man made traditions like OSAS - but is not the stuff of which sound sola scriptura proofs are made of.

    I prefer the actual Bible to your model of simply making stuff up to defend OSAS at any cost to logic, reason and scripture.

    I think you already knew that - but I guess you wanted me to state it.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  13. BobRyan

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    "the actual Bible says" -

    Dan 7:10
    Thousands upon thousands were attending Him,
    And myriads upon myriads were standing before Him;
    The court sat,
    And the books were opened.

    This is in complete harmony with the way that John describes judgment in the NT - based on things written in the books of heaven.

    Rev 20:12

    • New American Standard Bible
      And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds.
    • King James Version
      And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.



    • Holman Christian Standard Bible
      I also saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life, and the dead were judged according to their works by what was written in the books.



    • New King James Version
      And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.
    ========================================


    Proving that -


    1. When the books are opened - the contents IN the books are being taken into consideration instead of the nonsensical idea that the books are opened and then ignored.


    2. The opening of books in judgment is a teaching found both in OT and NT.


    3. The fact that this is done in the pre-advent judgment of Dan 7 AND in the post-Advent Post-Milennial judgment of Rev 20 only re-enforces the point.


    And so... the point remains.



    in Christ,


    Bob
     
    #13 BobRyan, Dec 31, 2013
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  14. DHK

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    You have not addressed your problem of blasphemy; of making God a man or making Him less than God; less than omniscient.

    The OT concept of judgment is not as clear as it is in the NT. The same holds true with most doctrines.
    But, in John chapter five, Christ clearly taught of two judgments.
    Paul taught of two judgments.
    John taught of two judgements.
    There are two distinct judgements: one for believers and one for unbelievers. One is described in 1Cor.3:11-15, and the other in Rev.20:11-15--two very different and distinct judgments separated by a thousand years in time.
    God needs no book! He is all-knowing. The book is real; it is there. But it is symbolic. The Lord already knows what is written therein. There is no investigation. Why would an all-knowing God have to do an investigation? You have made him less than God!
    Hollow arguments, just like you believe the arguments that the RCC use to prove that bread and wine are the actual body and blood of Christ--transubstantiation?? Is this what you believe?
    As the elements are symbolic, so are the books. They are real, but symbolic. God already knows what is therein. He doesn't rely on books for His knowledge. He is all-knowing, omniscience. You make him less than God, just a man. That is blasphemous.
    This is not about OSAS.
    This is about another SDA heresy--investigative judgment.
    There is no scripture anywhere to back this up. EGW came up with this by a wild and erroneous interpretation of scripture, and you are gullible enough to believe. That truly is sad!
     
  15. OldRegular

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    The OP is correct. God keeps eternally secure those who are saved through the sacrificial death of Jesus Christ. Those who continue to dispute this Biblical truth are making a liar out of God. They are guilty of blasphemy.

    Those who cling to Investigative Judgment and the teachings of Ellen G. White raise questions about their experience of Grace!
     
  16. BobRyan

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    You cannot post nonsense like that and expect it to be taken seriously.

    Post an actual Bible-based POV - Please be serious.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  17. BobRyan

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    Both OT and NT point out that in judgment the books are opened and as even the NT admits the contents of those books are not "then ignored" as you seem to wildly imagine for Daniel 7.

    The problem for your statement is that in the pre-advent judgment we have both saints and sinners - Christ divides the sheep from the goats in that judgment by the method described in Matt 7 and Romans 2 "by their fruits you shall know them".

    In the 2nd judgment at the end of the 1000 years is just for the lost - but the same method of using books and paying attention to what is actually in them - is used.

    Sorry for not reposting the texts again here - but the previous post has it - and it is only two back from here.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  18. DHK

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    You have not addressed your problem of blasphemy; of making God a man or making Him less than God; less than omniscient.

    It is not nonsense. God does not need books to scroll through. He is omniscient. You take away that attribute from him. The books are symbolic.

    Take for example the book of life.
    "And whosoever was not found in the book of life was cast in the lake of fire."
    --Did God search for the name?
    No. He knew. There was no investigation as you claim. He knows the names and he knows the works. Your doctrine is false.
     
  19. evangelist-7

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    You are assuming a whole bunch (just like you ignore a whole bunch of Scripture).

    IMO, God's angels wrote peoples' details in the books throughout history.
    Everything about people was recorded for posterity.
    Then the books were opened @ the Judgment.
    God's angels were the ones who opened them.
    That way, God had witnesses to why He judged how He judged.

    "All Scripture has been inspired by God" (2 Tim 3:16)
    All of these verses about "books" in heaven ... you say they are only symbolic!
    I say you are calling God a lair.

    Jesus warns,
    "He who overcomes ... I will not blot his name from The Book of (eternal) Life" (Rev 3:5)
    I say you are calling Jesus a liar.

    Welcome to the real world of Christianity! ... Oh, hum, can I go back to my snoozing now?

    And a Happy New Year 2014 to all,
    including all those here who are scared to death of the Scriptures!

    .
     
    #19 evangelist-7, Jan 1, 2014
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  20. BobRyan

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    At no point do I argue that God is not all-knowing. In fact over on the C-vs-A board some of my non-Cal posting friends have posted that at some level God's knowledge may not be exhaustive regarding the future - but I argue that it is exhaustive in knowing every detail about the future.

    In the Daniel 7 and Rev 20 case we have the books used in judgment even though you claim this Bible detail to be blasphemy (how sad).


    ========================


    In Dan 7:10 the "books are opened" so also in Rev 20:12.

    Book of Remembrance Malachi 3:16
    Book of Life - Ps 69:28, Phil 4:3, Rev 3:5 13:8
    Books of Record - (deeds written in them) - Rev 20:12,

    Deeds that will be brought up in the day of Judgment.

    2Cor 5:10 "shall give an account for the deeds done in the body whether they be good or evil"
    Matt 12:36-37 "give an account for every word spoken"'

    The court of haven sits - and "the books were opened" Dan 7:9-10 at the exact time predicted in Daniel 7.

    ===============

    "the Bible says" -

    Dan 7:10
    Thousands upon thousands were attending Him,
    And myriads upon myriads were standing before Him;
    The court sat,
    And the books were opened.

    This is in complete harmony with the way that John describes judgment in the NT - based on things written in the books of heaven.

    Rev 20:12

    • New American Standard Bible
      And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds.
    • King James Version
      And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.



    • Holman Christian Standard Bible
      I also saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life, and the dead were judged according to their works by what was written in the books.



    • New King James Version
      And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.


    Details matter even when they do not pander to the man-made tradition of OSAS or to Calvinism.



    I have never said that God is the one that needs the information in a book so he can figure something out.

    You seem to be making that part up on your own. (Possibly for "effect" with some low-information Bible student that you may suppose is reading the thread)
     
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