God looks upon the heart

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by The Biblicist, Feb 22, 2014.

  1. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2011
    Messages:
    14,145
    Likes Received:
    207
    Pr 16:2 ¶ All the ways of a man are clean in his own eyes; but the LORD weigheth the spirits.

    Ac 1:24 And they prayed, and said, Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all men, shew whether of these two thou hast chosen,

    1Sa 16:7 But the LORD said unto Samuel, Look not on his countenance, or on the height of his stature; because I have refused him: for the LORD seeth not as man seeth; for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the LORD looketh on the heart.

    Mt 12:34 O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.

    Ge 6:5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

    Ge 8:21 And the LORD smelled a sweet savour; and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man’s sake; for the imagination of man’s heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done.

    Pr 4:23 Keep thy heart with all diligence; for out of it are the issues of life.

    Jer 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

    Words and actions are mere manifestations of the heart. Therefore, the state or condition of the heart determines the nature of the words and actions rather than the appearance of those words and actions.

    For example, Jesus said that the outward life of the Pharisee was "whited" or "clean" in the sight of men. However, Christ told the pharisees that the inside must first be clean so that the outside could be clean in God's sight:

    Mt. 23:26 Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.
    27 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men’s bones, and of all uncleanness.
    28 Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.

    Therefore, outward actions that appear righteous "to men" are not righteous in God's sight unless the inside is cleansed "first" (Mt. 23:26).

    No man is able to cleanse his own heart any more than he can forgive himself. Even though man is commanded to "be ye perfect even as God is perfect" no man has that ability. As Job says no man can bring something clean out of an unclean thing.

    The MOTIVE of the heart determines the condition or state of the heart behind words and actions. The only right heart motive for all we say or do is to say and do all things "for the glory of God" and to come short of the glory of God is the essence of sin.
     
  2. steaver

    steaver
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2004
    Messages:
    9,005
    Likes Received:
    82
    Tis why we have need of daily confession and washing in the blood of Jesus. Though I may be found doing many things for the glory of God, I cannot say I do all things for the glory of God. But He's still working on me :thumbs: Praise Jesus!
     
  3. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2011
    Messages:
    14,145
    Likes Received:
    207
    The saved/regenerated man has a dual nature. However, Paul makes it very clear that the fallen nature which he calls "the flesh" in Romans 7:18 is completely corrupted by sin and can do nothing good in God's sight. Hence, the unregenerated man has a heart condition that loves darkness and hates light and thus all who are "in the flesh cannot please God" as their heart is in a STATE of sin and thus sinners by nature as it is incapable of doing anything from a right motive from "the youth" up.

    Ge 8:21 And the LORD smelled a sweet savour; and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man’s sake; for the imagination of man’s heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done.

    Note, this text is stated AFTER the flood, after God had destroyed mankind except for Noah and his family. This text occurs as Noah is offering up a sacrifice to the Lord. Hence, no one can argue God is speaking about merely evil men as a special class but rather is speaking of mankind in general and the natural unregenerated heart of man as it comes into the world in general from "the youth" up.
     
  4. Winman

    Winman
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2009
    Messages:
    14,768
    Likes Received:
    0
    Half truths equal total falsehood.

    Men can determine whether he is good or evil.

    Mat 12:33 Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.

    Biblicist only shows you half the scriptures. He was glad to show Mat 12:34 because pulled out of context and isolated it seems to support his argument. But if he would have included all of Jesus's words in context we see that man has both the option (Either, or else) and ability (make) to determine whether he is a good tree that bears good fruit, or a corrupt tree that bears corrupt fruit.

    Watch out for teachers like this.

    There is MUCH scripture that shows man can turn from evil and do good.

    Eze 18:31 Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
    32 For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.

    Biblicist wants to teach the false Calvinist doctrine that man has no ability to turn to God, but much scripture easily refutes this error.

    Psa 34:14 Depart from evil, and do good; seek peace, and pursue it.

    Isa 1:16 Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes; cease to do evil;

    Isa 1:17 Learn to do well; seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow.

    Isa 55:7 Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.

    Do not listen to teachers who only present selected proof texts to support their view, who ignore much scripture that refutes them. These are false teachers.
     
  5. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2011
    Messages:
    14,145
    Likes Received:
    207
    That is correct and that is why what you are teaching is absolute falsehood. For example, the following text (Mt. 12:33) is found in a context that totally repudiates your interpretation. Matthew 12:34-35 shows that Christ believed they could not do good:

    34 O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.
    35 A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things
    .

    Moreover, the command to "make..the tree good..evil" is a rebuke of their hypocrisy not an inference they are able to make themselves good or that any bad tree in nature can make itself good.

    This is the kind of nonsense that comes from the mouth of false teachers. None sense that contradicts the context and nonsense that contradicts the very illustration taken from nature.
     
  6. Winman

    Winman
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2009
    Messages:
    14,768
    Likes Received:
    0
    Pure baloney. Mat 12:33 clearly shows that man has both the option and ability to determine whether he is a good tree that produces good fruit, or a corrupt tree that produces corrupt fruit. Obviously these Pharisees had chosen to be corrupt fruit and therefore could not produce good fruit.

    But that is only one of MANY scriptures that shows man has the ability to do good.

    Num 15:38 Speak unto the children of Israel, and bid them that they make them fringes in the borders of their garments throughout their generations, and that they put upon the fringe of the borders a ribband of blue:
    39 And it shall be unto you for a fringe, that ye may look upon it, and remember all the commandments of the LORD, and do them; and that ye seek not after your own heart and your own eyes, after which ye use to go a whoring:
    40 That ye may remember, and do all my commandments, and be holy unto your God.
    41 I am the LORD your God, which brought you out of the land of Egypt, to be your God: I am the LORD your God.

    God does not speak as if the Jews were unable to do his commandments, he always spoke as if they were able. The fact that they did not choose to be obedient does not prove inability.

    I am able to jump off a ten story building and kill myself, the fact I have never done so does not prove I am unable.
     
  7. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2011
    Messages:
    14,145
    Likes Received:
    207
    This exposes your complete and utter ignorance of scripture in general. He is speaking of the Old Covenant just established with them in the wilderness and although this is their duty, the New Testament writers repeatedly say over and over again that no man can keep/observe/do the Old Covenant.

    I have exchanged enough with you to see your conscience is seared by false doctrine and you are incapable of seeing, understanding or loving the truth of God's Word. So it is a waste of time to respond to you as you have no eyes to see, no ears to hear but are bent upon teaching falsehoods and leading other down your pernicious ways.
     
  8. Winman

    Winman
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2009
    Messages:
    14,768
    Likes Received:
    0
    My conscience seared? That is a laugh. You are the one who must explain scripture away. I have provided scripture that shows man can obey God.

    I notice you did not actually show this scripture that you claim shows men cannot observe the law. I have noticed that Calvinists constantly do this, they claim scripture says this or that, but then they never actually show the scripture they claim is saying that.

    Show me where the scriptures say a man is unable to obey God's law. Now, it must be specific, it must actually say man is UNABLE. Saying that no man obeys the law is not saying he is unable. As I said before, I have never jumped off a 10 story building and killed myself, but that does not prove I am unable.
     
  9. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2011
    Messages:
    14,145
    Likes Received:
    207
    The sin of omission or coming short of the glory of God is what characterizes the fallen human heart from birth. It is not that infants actively sin or willfully violate God's Word, for they do not, as that takes rational discernment with choice. They are sinners at the deepest level of their heart (motive) and thus sinners by nature as their heart is governed by self-absorbed motives that never has as its source the glory of God and thus always "come short of the glory of God." Their sinful nature is then manifested in their attitude and behavior. But their heart is evil at its deepest level or the motive and intent and that is precisely why God does not judge by appearance but by observing the intent of the heart.

    Infants as they grow NEVER need to be taught to do evil as it comes naturally. No parent has ever had to teach any fallen infant to do evil. Any parent who denies this is either physically blind and deaf or is so blinded to evil they cannot even recognize it for what it is.

    Jn. 7:19 Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law? Why go ye about to kill me?
     
    #9 The Biblicist, Feb 23, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 23, 2014
  10. Winman

    Winman
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2009
    Messages:
    14,768
    Likes Received:
    0
    That scripture does not say man is unable to obey the law, it only says these particular men did not keep the law.

    Paul himself said the Gentiles DO by nature the things contained in the law.

    Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

    You are trying to teach that men cannot obey the law, when Paul said the Gentiles DO the things contained in the law by NATURE.

    Men can obey the law if they choose to do so. The fact that men do not obey the law does not prove inability. There are many things I am able to do that I never do.

    And sin is not something you are, sin is something you DO, it is transgression of the law. So, you redefine scriptural terms once again.
     
  11. Winman

    Winman
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2009
    Messages:
    14,768
    Likes Received:
    0
    That scripture does not say man is unable to obey the law, it only says these particular men did not keep the law.

    Paul himself said the Gentiles DO by nature the things contained in the law.

    Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

    You are trying to teach that men cannot obey the law, when Paul said the Gentiles DO the things contained in the law by NATURE.

    Men can obey the law if they choose to do so. The fact that men do not obey the law does not prove inability. There are many things I am able to do that I never do.

    And sin is not something you are, sin is something you DO, it is transgression of the law. So, you redefine scriptural terms once again.
     
  12. Winman

    Winman
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2009
    Messages:
    14,768
    Likes Received:
    0
    That scripture does not say man is unable to obey the law, it only says these particular men did not keep the law.

    Paul himself said the Gentiles DO by nature the things contained in the law.

    Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

    You are trying to teach that men cannot obey the law, when Paul said the Gentiles DO the things contained in the law by NATURE.

    Men can obey the law if they choose to do so. The fact that men do not obey the law does not prove inability. There are many things I am able to do that I never do.

    And sin is not something you are, sin is something you DO, it is transgression of the law. So, you redefine scriptural terms once again.

    As far as being taught evil, Satan was created perfect and sinned, the fallen angels were created perfect and sinned, and Adam and Eve were created very good and yet sinned. This proves your view that the nature controls what a person does is complete error.
     
  13. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2011
    Messages:
    14,145
    Likes Received:
    207
    God looks upon the heart because only a correct heart motive which God views as "good" can produce good fruit of the lips and actions. That sole motive that God views as "good" is the motive which does all things for the glory of God - 1 Cor. 10:31.

    Moses did not give the Law to merely some Jews but to all Jews as a nation. "Yet NONE OF YOU keepeth the Law" as the Law cannot be kept apart from the heart and its proper motive. No fallen human from birth to death can keep the Law EXCEPT by external appearance. Jesus acknowledged that they were EXTERNALLY white in APPEARANCE. That is precisely why all fallen humans are SINNERS BY NATURE long before they are sinners by choice. They come forth from the womb with an evil heart motive - selfishness and any fool can see it if they have eyes in their head.

    Romans 2:14-15 is merely proving that the conscience in fallen gentiles does the same "work" of the law in providing judicial discernment between good and evil. He is merely describing its function making it an equal basis for judgement. Thus if the Gentile keeps the law of conscience (not claiming they have) they would be superior in righteousness than the Jew with the law of Moses. Paul is developing his argument from Romans 1:18 to Romans 3:9 that no Jew or Gentile can be found that does "good" before God whether it is according to the law of Moses or the law of conscience and this is spelled out in UNIVERSAL language in Romans 3:19-20:

    1. Every mouth
    2. All the world
    3. No flesh

    This is Paul's conclusion while some on this forum openly contradict Paul's conclusion. They do this by jerking texts out of context ignoring the contextual developmental argument of Paul from Romans 1:18-3:9. Jesus told a rich young man who WANTED TO DO GOOD that "there was none good but one" and that one was not him but God. Doing good requries a good heart and a good heart requires a good motive which cannot be found in fallen man from birth to death.
     
    #13 The Biblicist, Feb 24, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 24, 2014
  14. Winman

    Winman
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2009
    Messages:
    14,768
    Likes Received:
    0
    Easily refuted, Jesus himself said sinners do good.

    Luk 6:33 And if ye do good to them which do good to you, what thank have ye? for sinners also do even the same.

    Jesus knows what is good and what is bad, and Jesus said sinners do good.

    You absolutely misrepresent this scripture, Jesus was not speaking of all Jews, not all Jews sought to kill him. Many Jews worshiped him and believed on him.

    Jhn 7:31 And many of the people believed on him, and said, When Christ cometh, will he do more miracles than these which this man hath done?

    This verse was taken from the very same chapter and context. You misrepresent what scripture is truly saying AGAIN.

    No, Paul is showing that total inability is absolutely false doctrine. The Gentiles by nature DID the things contained in the law showing the law written upon their hearts.

    Yes, all men have sinned, but not everything man does is sin. Men are able to obey the law, and this is in fact what Paul said the Gentiles were doing.

    When Jesus said there is none good, he means 100% good, to be absolutely perfect, to be completely without sin. No man is without sin, and therefore no man is "good".

    Jesus was not teaching that everything an unsaved man does is sin. It is not sin when an unsaved man tells the truth, or returns a lost wallet, or helps someone in need. Unsaved men do good works all the time, but their good works cannot save them. Cornelius proves this, he was not saved, and he did not have the Holy Spirit, but he did works that Peter called righteous.

    Acts 10:35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

    Cornelius was not saved, and he worked righteousness. Total inability is utterly false doctrine refuted by much scripture.

    The issue is ABILITY. Unsaved men have the ability to do good, and unsaved men have the ability to believe the gospel when they hear it.
     
    #14 Winman, Feb 24, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 24, 2014
  15. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2011
    Messages:
    14,145
    Likes Received:
    207
    Notice that Jesus is using the term "good" as it is horizontally seen, used and defined among men "YE do good to THEM." He is not using it or defining it according to how God views it. This can be easily seen and proven by how Christ viewed and described the righteousnesses of the Pharisees in the following words:

    Mt. 24:25 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess.

    Notice he admits that they make "clean" the outside! Right? But in what sense does he mean this? Does he mean it in the sense that God defines "clean" OR by how men define "clean"??? The next verses answer this question:

    26 Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also[/B].

    Notice that Christ denies the outside is really clean because he claims that "FIRST" the inside must be cleansed so that the outside "MAY BE CLEAN ALSO." From God's perspective the outside they "made clean" was still unclean in God's sight becuase from God's perspective the inside MUST FIRST be made clean so that the also MAY be clean also. Hence, what they made clean was only in APPEARANCE only IN THE SIGHT OF MEN as the next verses prove:

    27 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men’s bones, and of all uncleanness.
    28 Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.


    Hence, Christ is contrasting the idea of "clean" in appearance only before men with the idea of clean before God which requires FIRST the inside be cleansed BEFORE the outside can be cleansed. Note, that in all four verses the INSIDE was NEVER seen as clean before God but as full of dead men bones and ONLY GOD could see the inside.

    You cant honestly refute what I have interpreted these verses. Be careful before you respond in order not to be perverting God's Word and thus identifying yourself as a perverter of God's Word.


    This text says NOTHING at all about them keeping the Law! Don't you know that the "law is NOT OF FAITH"?? - Gal. 3:12! Hence, believing in Christ is acknowledgment they cannot keep the Law or else they would have no need to believe in Christ who is the only human that has kept the law. You simply don't understand justification by faith or else you would not keep repeating that men are able to keep the law - Paul says that NO FLESH is able to keep the Law as all flesh is "under sin" - Rom. 3:9,19-20.


    You don't understand that to "keep" the law requires 100% as failing to keep the law in only ONE POINT violates every other point. You claim the exact opposite. You claim fallen man can keep ONE or MORE points of the Law and thus be and do good. However, the Scripture deny that any fallen man can keep ONE POINT because violation of ANY POINT is a violation of all other points. You don't understand the UNITY of the Law that it is impossible to keep any point without keeping every point and impossible to violate one point without violating every other point. Instead YOU claim fallen man can not only keep ONE but many points while violating other points.

    Your interpretation is strictly EXTERNAL and SUPERFICIAL understanding and application of the Law of God when defining what it means to "KEEP" the Law. Jesus plainly states the INSIDE of man must FIRST be cleansed BEFORE the OUTSIDE (words, actions) can be clean. This INSIDE CLEANSING has to do with the HEART and its ruling inclination or MOTIVE. The only RIGHT motive in God's sight is the motive to glorify God in everything you say and do and without that motive EVERYTHING you say and do BEFORE GOD is unclean but only has the external APPEARANCE of cleaness and that only in the sight of men.
     
  16. Winman

    Winman
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2009
    Messages:
    14,768
    Likes Received:
    0
    I don't know which version of scripture you are using, but mine does not use the term "horizontal". You seem to believe you can just make stuff up and that makes it so. Jesus said sinners do good, and Jesus knows the difference between good and evil.

    And Cornelius refutes your view completely, he was not saved, nor did he have the Holy Spirit, but Peter said he worked "righteousness".



    Jesus was speaking to certain Pharisees here, not all men. You lack discernment.

    Yes I can, Jesus was not speaking of all men here, he was specifically addressing the scribes and Pharisees. Again, you lack discernment .

    Total misapplication of scripture. Nowhere do the scriptures say a man is not able to obey the law. In many places the scriptures say no man has obeyed the law. Those are two very different subjects that you seem not able to discern.

    When I was in High School, I did not always do my homework. Was I able to always do my homework? YES. The fact that I did not always do my homework does not prove I was unable to do it.

    A child could understand this.

    Actually, I have understood this for decades. This is why the scriptures say no man is "good". Good in the scriptures means 100% perfect.

    That said, that does not mean man cannot do good. Men do good things all the time, Cornelius lived a life of good and righteous works. Was he perfect? NO! he was a sinner like everyone else.

    But the issue is, can a man believe? And the answer is YES.

    No, it is you that attempts to redefine what scripture says. Jesus said sinners do "good". He did not say evil, he said good. Peter said Cornelius worked "righteousness". He did not say evil.

    Your view that everything an unsaved man does is evil is complete and total error refuted by much scripture. Men can do good, even if no man is perfectly good, and men can believe.
     
  17. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    17,034
    Likes Received:
    47
    we produce the fruit of our natures, as Jesus said that ALL of us apart from Him are children of satan, apart and at war with God, and ONLY those saved by his grace produce good fruit, as its not us , but the holy spirit producing that in us now!
     
  18. Winman

    Winman
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2009
    Messages:
    14,768
    Likes Received:
    0
    Would you care to give the book and verse(s) where Jesus said all these things?
     
  19. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    17,034
    Likes Received:
    47
    your bible doesn't have where he called ALl those against Him as messiah as acting as their father satan himself?

    Where jesus said outfrom the heart/inner nature, proceeds all wicked things, and paul agreed with him that flesh natures produce corrupt fruit?

    taht Jesus said that ONLY by abiding in him, can we have fgood fruit, and paul said that ONLY the holy spriti can produce his good fruit in us, the saved?

    you don;t have where isaiah said that ALL our goods works arelike Dung in sight of god?
     
  20. Winman

    Winman
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2009
    Messages:
    14,768
    Likes Received:
    0
    Again, would you please simply show the book and verses where you claim Jesus said that everyone apart from him was a child of Satan, and that only saved people can do good?

    I ask because I know scripture where Jesus said sinners can do good.

    Luk 6:33 And if ye do good to them which do good to you, what thank have ye? for sinners also do even the same.

    Jesus here said sinners can do good. That seems to contradict what you claim Jesus said. So once again, where was that scripture??

    And I don't recall Jesus saying all unsaved people were children of Satan. In fact, Jesus told his disciples they must be converted and become as little children to enter heaven. Does this sound like little children are children of Satan to you?

    Mat 18:3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

    You are a smart guy, you can almost spell, does this sound like little children are children of Satan to you?
     

Share This Page

Loading...