God of the Bible?

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by webdog, Apr 16, 2005.

  1. webdog

    webdog
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    John Calvin himself taught that God refused to extend saving grace to the majority of mankind, even while He condemns them for the unbelief that invariably results from His decision! An illustration may help here...

    Imagine yourself in the room of a bed-bound quadraplegic, the paralyzed victim of a severed spinal cord. You hold in your hand an amazing medicine that quickly heals even the worst nerve damage. You tell the patient what the medicine is and what it can do for them. Then you add: "Now keep in mind that this is yours to have absolutely free. I won't charge you one cent for it. All you need to do is reach out your hand and take it. That's all I ask. But if you don't, you can't have it."

    Can the medicine do what you say it can do? YES!

    Can the cripple meet your one condition? NO!

    Do you know he cannot possibly do what you ask? YES!

    But that's not all.

    When the patient doesn't do what you ask, you condemn him for not doing it. You tell him he won't be healed...not because you didn't offer the medicine to him, but because he refused to accept it. You then turn on your heel and walk out of the room, never to return. He will NEVER see your medicine again.

    Admittedly the analogy is perverse, disgusting and monstrous. But is it not a fairly accurate picture of the behavior Calvinism attributes to almighty God? ONLY THE CRUELEST, MOST DESPICABLE HYPOCRITE - OR THE INSANE - COULD DO WHAT CALVINISM SAYS GOD DOES AND SERIOUSLY EXPECT OTHERS TO CALL HIM "FAIR," "JUST" AND "RIGHTEOUS."
     
  2. gb93433

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    Some have that god as their God. I would ask them questions like: Why pray? Why sing? Why give thanks? Why follow God if everything is predeternined. No point in reading their Bible. It won't do any good because according to them there is nothing they can do except be a robot without a chance of repentance. If God has predetermined every move and choice then why even live and not take your life. It is a shorter distance to eternity.

    I do not know one hyper-Calvinist who lives like one.
     
  3. Pastor Larry

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    No, it isn't accurate. It is not what the Bible teaches, and therefore, not what Calvinism teaches. The sinner does not want to be healed. God is not withholding something the sinner desires. Whosoever will may be saved; the sinner won't, and therefore won't be saved. Your analogy falls apart on so many levels.

    GB repeats a classic distortion. We do those things he asks about because God is worthy of it. We pray because we are Calvinists. If you aren't a Calvinist, it is illogical to pray since you are asking God to be a respecter of persons, and to do the very thing you decry him doing. That doesn't make sense.

    This problems go away simply by believing God's word.
     
  4. rc

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    I get a kick out of all these "Analogies" of man being sick, "little babies" falling over a waterfall, miracle medicine that can heal whatever STUPID desease that is killing them...

    They all TOTALLY misunderstand the one and most important thing...

    THE HEART ! The patient, babies.. etc are always portrayed as WANTING, DESIRING and being innocent people longing for salvation... UNBIBLICAL.... This is humanism at it's best! (worst)...

    Man (biblically) is at enminty with God. He goes against God. He hates the "medicine" the Doctor has for him !! HE WANTS A SECOND OPINION from the doctor named Satan who tells him, he's o.k. and gives him a clean bill of health and the patient BELIEVES him!
     
  5. MargoWriter

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    Romans 3:3
    "For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?"

    and from verse 5
    "Is God unrighteous who taketh vengeance? (I speak as a man.)

    and verses 10 and following ...

    "As it is written, there is none righteous, no not one: there is none that understandth, , there is none that seeketh after God. They are wll gone out of hte way, they are together bedcome unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one."

    Reading through that entire chapter, nothing could be clearer ...

    God does not forbid salavation to ANYONE who desires it. But don't you see? WE DON'T WANT IT! We're revelling in our sin ... we love our wretchedness. We are haters of God and lovers of self. We are children of the devil.

    Until he gives us that desire--until he gives us the faith. If you study it out, you'll find that the scriptures indicate that this faith is of Christ--it's not OUR faith, but Christ's faith given to us.
     
  6. rc

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    In a microcosim Margo, it's like Arminians NOT WANTING Calvinism ! The Holy Spirit has got to change them...

    We are all born Arminianist... then God gives us grace and we become Calvinists ~ C.H. Spurgeon
     
  7. webdog

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    I don't believe we are all born arminian, and God gives grace to become calvinist, I believe we are all born again, and then through teachings of men are deceived into believing a false doctrine based on human intellect.
     
  8. icthus

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    The first part is true, we are all born Arminians, and are even so as a new Christian who has not been brainwashed by Calvinistic dogma. Then, its NOT God's grace that makes anyone become a Calvinist, as God cannot lead anyone into error. No, they follow their blind leaders who make them believe that Calvinism is the ONLY WAY, which is no different from the Jehovah's Witnesses, who think they will be the only ones in heaven.
     
  9. icthus

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    [​IMG]
     
  10. webdog

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    No, it isn't accurate. It is not what the Bible teaches, and therefore, not what Calvinism teaches. The sinner does not want to be healed. God is not withholding something the sinner desires. Whosoever will may be saved; the sinner won't, and therefore won't be saved. Your analogy falls apart on so many levels.

    GB repeats a classic distortion. We do those things he asks about because God is worthy of it. We pray because we are Calvinists. If you aren't a Calvinist, it is illogical to pray since you are asking God to be a respecter of persons, and to do the very thing you decry him doing. That doesn't make sense.

    This problems go away simply by believing God's word.
    </font>[/QUOTE]In my analogy the patient was not seeking God, God came into the room TO OFFER the medicine. This happens when we are offering the Gospel to those not necessarily seeking God who we come into contact with daily.

    "The whosoever will be saved, the sinner won't, and therefore won't be saved". This is Biblical double talk. It's like saying the "full glass" is a glass you pour half out, and the half that is left makes the glass "full". Complete twisting of the wording.

    As far as God being a respector of persons, If he chose me and not someone else before time, I believe that would make Him a respector of persons, because he chose me before I even existed, just the opposite of what you state.
     
  11. icthus

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    A good example is in Matthew's Gospel, where we have Jesus preaching to the "multitudes" (chapter 11). He then goes on to make them all an offer, "come unto me all ye that labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest" (v.28)

    Unless one were to go to Jesus, they would not get the rest for their sould that He promised them.
     
  12. rc

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    "The whosoever will be saved, the sinner won't, and therefore won't be saved".

    First of all the "whosoever" isn't there in the Greek in John 3.16 secondly this is a simple statement and does no harm to Calvinism... Whoever believes will be saved, and those who don't, won't.... You seem to think Calvinist's don't believe this... but we do. Everybody has the choice to believe that's all that is being said.
     
  13. OldRegular

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    You correctly state that the analogy is perverse, disgusting and monstrous. You should have added that it is totally false.

    Instead of dumping on those who believe that salvation is the work of God, not of man, why not spend your time trying to refute the Scripture which teach this truth.

    John 6:37-40

    John 6:44, 45

    John 6:64, 65

    John 10:26-29

    Romans 8:28-30

    Ephesians 1:3-7

    Ephesians 2:1-8

    1 Peter 2:9

    John 3:19
     
  14. whetstone

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    i find it rather humorous that the arminians attack Calvinism calling it 'the reason of men' yet rely on this very reason to refute Calvinism. Why don't you show us some scripture references instead of backwards analogies that have absolutely nothing to do with the doctrines of grace- and everything to do with an obstinate rejection of God's truth?
     
  15. icthus

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    Whetstone, Calvinists are like robots, they have been programmed to believe the 5 points at all costs, questioning nothing, believing all, regardless whether what you do believe is Biblical or not. So, when we give Scripture showing that you are wrong, you twist them to your own conclusions. You see, you guys have these notions, and everything has to fit, even though most of Calvinism is completely unbiblical.
     
  16. MargoWriter

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    THAT'S RIDICULOUS.
    I'd never even heard of the 5 points of calvinism until my home church was a without a pastor back in 1998.

    Someone told me about the whole debate, free will vs. election and what not ...

    I was like, 'people really believe that?'

    I already knew what's taught in the '5 points,' but had never heard of Calvinism.
     
  17. icthus

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    THAT'S RIDICULOUS.
    I'd never even heard of the 5 points of calvinism until my home church was a without a pastor back in 1998.

    Someone told me about the whole debate, free will vs. election and what not ...

    I was like, 'people really believe that?'

    I already knew what's taught in the '5 points,' but had never heard of Calvinism. [/QB]</font>[/QUOTE]What's ridiculous? Scan the posts of the Calvinists, like Whetstone, Larry, etc and you will see that I am right
     
  18. MargoWriter

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    ROFL ... they believe what I believe.

    I'm trying to tell ya ... the '5 points' come from scripture. I believed them before I knew anything about calvinism.

    :rolleyes:

    And if you think scanning a few posts would change me to believe what I think is contradictory to scripture ...
     
  19. MargoWriter

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    I'm somewhat insulted that you think I'm dense enough to change my mind by reading a few posts by people who have been aruging in here back and forth for ages ... regardless of who's right and who's wrong.
     
  20. icthus

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    Well, if you think that the 5 points come from Scripture, the I suggest that you have missed it! :D
     

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