God SAW their works ... and God repented

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by BobRyan, Oct 21, 2005.

  1. BobRyan

    BobRyan
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    On the thread "Should God have Compassion" (which is a reference to Jonah 4) there were numerous efforts to sidetrack the topic OFF of Jonah 4 and ON to something else - anything else that would be better suited to the views of those objecting (or apparently objecting) to the LIST God gives in Jonah 4 when speaking TO Jonah about why HE SHOULD have compassion.

    Many posted (in effect) that they WISHED they were reading Romans 9 INSTEAD of the actual WORDS IN Jonah 4. (This was obvious as they quqoted and dealt with ROMANS 9 INSTEAD of addressing the details of Jonah 4).

    In Romans 9 they felt much more comfortable thinking of God as saying "I am God - I don't need a reason to do anything and you can not question me and expect me to give you a reason"..

    All well and good - but not what is IN Jonah 4.

    As it happens - the text of THIS OP was ALSO given as something that was more desirable than the actual wording in Jonah 4's "LIST" as a REASON for WHY God should have compassion.

    -- So that brings us to THIS thread. I have no problem at ALL with a focus on Jonah 3:10 as ANOTHER EXCELLENT example of a distressing text for Calvinists. (But of course it was only fitting that we STAY focused on Jonah 4 in a thread ABOUT Jonah 4 people!)

    So for those who might be more willing to let themselves read Jonah 3 if not Jonah 4 ---

    A few questions.

    #1. What is the SEQUENCE the author of Jonah 3:10 presents? (Stick with what is IN the text).

    #2. Should we believe the text when IT says that based on what God SEES - He takes the action to CHANGE from His intent to destroy the city?

    #3. Does the REPENTANCE of man - ever "result" in something from God??? If so - how does that fit what "Calvinism" would "expect"??

    #4. The text specifically points to "Their WORKS" of repentance. Why? (Stay with the text please).

    #5. Does the text use WORDING that suggests that if the people had NOT repented God WOULD have destroyed the city? (This one will be hard for Calvinists -- so just look at the text of scripture in Jonah 3 to see WHAT IT is saying as a start).

    Looking forward to the many ways Calvinists will either solve the problem or dance around it.

    Your choice.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  2. whatever

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    Dear Bob,

    1. The Ninevites repented, God saw, He relented.

    2. Yes, we should.

    3. Yes, it does.

    4. Because repentence results in works that prove repentance.

    5. Yes, it does.

    Now go get some sleep.

    Your Calvinist friend,

    whatever
     
  3. BobRyan

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    Whatever -- that was pretty direct and specific.

    I am most impressed!

    Just one question -

    I am not sure you can answer a "HOW" question with "Yes it does".

    What am I missing?

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  4. whatever

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    Dear Bob,

    You asked two questions in #3, a "does" question and a "how" question. Obviously I answered the "does" question. I did not answer the "how" question because we both know that you really don't care how the answer fits with what "Calvnism" would "expect". Now go get some sleep.

    Your friend,

    whatever
     
  5. whetstone

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    Good answers Whatever.

    I think the most important questions to ask about the book of Jonah are the motivations and accomplishments of God. Here are some for you Bob:

    Could God have left the Ninevites to their own devices without a preacher?

    Did the preacher attempt not to go?

    Did God know how to get the preacher to go? (Hint: Long John Silvers)

    Did God send the right guy to preach the right message to the Ninevites?

    Did the Ninevites spontaneously repent on their own or was their repentance authored by God Himself?

    If the Ninevites had not repented (a possibility according to Arminianism), what do you suppose Jonah would have thought about the ability of his God to save men?

    Did God REALLY change His mind about Ninevah or was His purpose to save them from destruction?

    You will see that if you take Jonah to the Arminian conclusion you end up with a non-immutable God who is dependant on His creation- making US gods of our own making.

    Regards,

    Daniel Allen
    www.spurgeon.us
     
  6. BobRyan

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    On contrare - I DO care how you would solve the problem once you answer "yes it does".

    In fact I would way that is "the point".


    quote:
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Bob asks -
    #3. Does the REPENTANCE of man - ever "result" in something from God??? If so - how does that fit what "Calvinism" would "expect"??

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    quote:
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Whatever said "3. Yes, it does."
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------


    (I did get some sleep by the way) [​IMG]

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  7. BobRyan

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    Yes -- See Romans 2:11-16

    Yes - failure and disobedience are not precluded from the saints. Some of them obey only screaming and kicking. But in the end Jonah did not "have" to ask to be tossed into the sea and did not "have" to "preach anyway".

    He could have chosen to remain in stubborn rebellion.

    Yes - HEB 12 - God knew how to discipline Jonah and get his attention.

    The fact of discipline in a free will system of intelligent free will beings that CHOOSE (parents and children for example) is not a contradictory concept.
    Did God send the right guy to preach the right message to the Ninevites?

    God convicts "THE WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment". God used Jonah and of course the Holy Spirit to convict the depraved, sinful-nature enhanced - wicked people of Nineveh.

    The text does not say that he "regenerated them FIRST and placed them all in union with Christ" THEN sent Jonah to convict them of sin.

    Which I see as the problem for Calvinism.

    The "detail" in the text show that Jonah did NOT PREACH a message of hope or salvation. He did NOT say "REPENT so that God can save you or else you will be destroyed" because Jonah WANTED God to destroy them!

    Jonah ONLY predicted their doom. He did not say "40 days and the city MIGHT be destroyed". And He did not say "40 days and if you don't repent God is going to DESTROY you".

    So obviously Jonah would have been tickled pink to think that he PREDICTED doom and they GOT DOOM! That makes him a TRUE prophet, it makes God the defender and avenger of Israel and it makes God "biased and partial" TO ISRAEL loving THEM but not the Ninevites! Perfect for Calvinism - Perfect for Jonah.

    But not God's way at all.

    If God just wanted to destroy them he would send fire and brimstone instead of Jonah.

    But Jonah seeks to thwart God by CHOOSING to ONLY preach a message of "predicted destruction" not a conditional message of hope based on repentance.

    I agree that the book of Jonah shows a textbook perfect case in point for Arminianism just like Job 1 and 2 does -- and I agree that Calvinists will need to solve/refute that somehow. Perhaps by claiming that "this makes us gods".

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  8. whatever

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    Dear Bob,

    This has been explained many times before. Because you asked so sweetly, though, I will address it again. Calvinists expect that whenever God works in the hearts of men that repentance will follow. When repentance follows, God's outward disposition towards those who repent changes. We who believe are now at peace with God. It was not always so, even though Christ died for our sin hundreds of years before we were even born. God sits outside of time working out His plan, but He works out His plan in time, in the events of our lives.

    Your friend,

    whatever
     
  9. russell55

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    Yes, and when that happens it happens because God planned to work the repentence so that he could respond differently to them as a result.
     
  10. BobRyan

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    Ok so then Nineveh - precross - and repentance.

    Are you saying God first regenerated the city and then the city discovered it was in union with Christ and then since it was already in union with Christ and no longer depraved it REPENTED (because of course not the totally derpraved were ENABLED to repent having been regenerated).

    Then God SAW their repentance and their works - and HE then repented of the destruction He planned for the city.

    Is that your view? Is that how Calvinism would have it?

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  11. whatever

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    Where did I say anything about regeneration?
     
  12. BobRyan

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    I was taking something from a page in Calvinism that says that the way that the totally depraved lost wicked are ENABLED to repent is by FIRST being REGENERATED.

    Calvinism claims that REGENERATION comes BEFORE repentance - or is there another flavor of Calvinism on that point?

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  13. whatever

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    I wish you would make it clear when you are talking about what I say, versus when you are talking about what someone else said about a different subject. It is really confusing.
     
  14. BobRyan

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    I am trying to get at the whole picture of how Calvinism would suggest that the scenario of Nineveh actually happened.

    In other words if it is not going to be the Arminian way - please show how Calvinism would have it.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  15. whatever

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    I already did.
     
  16. TomMann

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    Bob,

    The problem seems to be that there is no Calvinist Manefesto... We are not following a systematic set of theologic proclamations. We for the most part have read the bible, various commentaries, expositions, and books. I have read things charismatic, arminian, calvinistic, etc... We do not all think alike or walk lockstep on all issues. We absorb, reflect, pray and think for ourselves.

    So it makes no sense to us to have to defend those things we don't agree with. And it irks us to be accused of believing certain things just because we believe in the soverign grace of God.

    I personally attend a Soverign Grace (KJV) Church. I don't consider myself KJVO. I think it is good for the memberd of a church use the same version of the bible. We do not have a bible check at the door or exclude anyone without a KJV. I do think that the other versions have subtle changes that may effect understanding of what is said, but again that is my personal opinion. I have no objection to other churchs using any other version.

    I disagree with some of the teachings of our pastor. We can talk about it freely with each other without making it a major issue in front of other church members.

    Basically, I don't feel a need to defend calvinism, but I do stand up for my beliefs.
     
  17. BobRyan

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    Whatever responds -- I already did.

    This is a pretty short thread so far -- point to the link where you actually answered the question above.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  18. BobRyan

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    The unnanswered point "remains unnanswered still".

    IF you do not have a solution for "Totally depraved humanity coming to repentance" then say so.

    If your solution is the Calvinist one that says that totally depraved man must FIRST be regenerated to THEN be anabled to repent - then say so.

    If your solution looks more like the Arminian one that says that totally depraved humanity is DRAWN by God (who draws ALL mankind) and is convicted by God (who convicts the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment) and is thue supernaturally ENABLED to choose, to repent -- and must simply CHOOSE to do so -- and then to become born again as part of that Gospel process ---
    Then say so.

    Simply ducking the point is not really addressing it.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  19. whatever

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    Page 1, post number 8.
     
  20. TomMann

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    First Bob,

    There is no sense in responding. If I tell you what I believe.... then you want scriptural backing. And if I give spiritual backing you will exegete and hermanute and tell me why scripture doesn't mean what it plainly says.

    Nevertheless here is what I believe causes a person to come to Christ....

    Dan 4:34 And at the end of the days I Nebuchadnezzar lifted up mine eyes unto heaven, and mine understanding returned unto me, and I blessed the most High,

    2 Kings 6:17 And the LORD opened the eyes of the young man; and he saw:

    Both these verses parallel what God does in the life of the elect. He opens our eyes and ears to the things of the spirit, things of God. One moment we are in the world acting as the reprobate, and then in an instant, our understanding comes to us and we see and we acknowledge the Most High. Without this transaction, nothing has happened.

    Many, many times I have seen it touted to the unregenerate to come to the alter to be shown how to be saved. I believe that if that transaction (above) hasn't taken place before you get up out of your seat.... it ain't gonna happen at the alter. You can teach people to pretend that Jesus is Lord. You can teach them to parrot the words. And you can have them say a thousand sinners prayers...... nothing happened without that (above) work of God.

    I believe that our churches today, even the one I attend, have too many members who pretend without knowing. They say Jesus is Lord because their pastor told them that was the ticket to heaven. And because it gets them membership in the church, perhaps standing in the community. Realistically they have no more faith than the reprobate. Any crisis is a major crisis. They place their hopes in their 401K and all their confidence in insurance policies. And yes, they would lots rather be entertained than preached to.

    As far a real preaching goes..... Here are my thoughts for today...

    Amos 8:11 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord GOD, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the LORD:

    I believe that day is here!!!!!!!!
     

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