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God' Soveriegnty

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by Bro Tony, Jun 25, 2004.

  1. ILUVLIGHT

    ILUVLIGHT Guest

    Hi Archangel;
    Should I suppose there are contradictions in Romans? Or is there something we're missing here.
    Rom 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath showed it unto them.
    Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

    Now if man can't hear or understand or know God with out regeneration then this verse is a mistake.

    When I read Romans 3:9-12 I don't see anything there about being unable to respond. In fact I've never read that anywhere in scripture. All I see is Paul quoting scripture from the old testament. I have never read anything about anyone being unable to respond to the Gospel. Please underline if you would, just where it clearly says we are unable to respond?

    If you look at your concordance you will see that Paul is quoting what a fool has said in his heart Psa 14 and Psa 51.

    I believe what Paul is demonstrating here is the problems of the law. And how they relate to what the fool had said in his heart. The problems one runs in to when trying to live by the law. Your soul just won't have it. But we do not live according to the law. Everyone of us sins there is no one righteous by the law. Only by Christ do we have any righteousness. If we could be righteous by the law we would indeed have something to bragg about.

    Rom 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
    Rom 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

    What the fool has said in his heart is what the law gives man. Which IMHO is self defeating when you try to keep the law. As difficult as it is, so much so that you just give up. Which the history of the Jews in the wilderness clearly showed in that even though all the miracles worked by God for there benefit God's law of Righteousness was impossible to keep. No one was ever saved by the law.

    May God Bless You;
    Mike [​IMG]
     
  2. npetreley

    npetreley New Member

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    Although I'm not crazy about the term "free will", especially the way Arminians use it, I believe that among the entire human race, Adam had the closest thing to "free will". Adam chose to disobey, and God was still sovereign, since God knew in advance exactly what would happen and how He would handle it.

    I do not believe we are born with the desire to choose God. Therefore, it doesn't matter to me whether you want to say we have free will or not - given the choice, we WILL NOT choose God. God must regenerate us first. God is still sovereign.

    However, even if it turned out the Arminians were right, and God left it up to man to decide whether or not to respond to Him, then God could still be sovereign. God, knowing the end from the beginning, knowing the mind of every man, would know exactly what it would take to convince anyone to come to Him, and God would know exactly what NOT to do to allow that person to perish (anyone remember what Jesus said about Tyre and Sidon?)

    So the bottom line is God is sovereign, no matter what. The wicked may rightfully perish because they are wicked, but God is ultimately responsible for their existence, their condition and their fate, just as much as He is responsible for the elect's existence, regenerated condition and their fate. "God has made everything to Himself, yes, even the wicked for the day of doom."
     
  3. npetreley

    npetreley New Member

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    Oh yeah, all that was supposed to answer the question -- no, man cannot thwart God's will in anything. Any "decision" man makes is either prompted or allowed by God.
     
  4. Bro Tony

    Bro Tony New Member

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    That is my conclusion also. I also believe God is sovereign and that sovereignty cannot be taken away whether there is "freewill" or not. That is the point and question behind starting this thread.

    Bro Tony
     
  5. Ian Major

    Ian Major New Member

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    Bro Tony said
    I also believe God is sovereign and that sovereignty cannot be taken away whether there is "freewill" or not. That is the point and question behind starting this thread.

    I think the crucial point is that while God's sovereignty would not be affected by allowing man absolute free-will in the Garden, it would be by allowing this to continue.

    That is, God's sovereignty can be assessed not by the beginning or interim of history, but by its outcome. God can sovereignly allow man to Fall, but if He permitted man to have the final say on receiving His salvation, then God's plan and purpose would be limited by man and therefore His sovereignty be only partial.

    But God chose us to be His own peculiar people, and nothing will prevent that from happening. Man's free-will was exposed in the Old Covenant - 'do this and live' - and having been found wanting, God's real means of salvation was revealed in the New Covenant - 'I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. '

    Under man's free-will, no bride could be guaranteed for Christ; under God's free-will, His spotless Bride is made certain.

    In Him

    Ian
     
  6. npetreley

    npetreley New Member

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    There is a problem with discussing this topic outside the context of salvation (Arminianism vs. Calvinism). One can speculate on the question "is it possible for God to give man free will and still be sovereign?" and come up with an academic answer. My academic answer would be "yes". I would say "yes" because God foresees all, and permits whatever He wishes to permit, and directs whatever He wishes to direct.

    But my answer changes if you add to that, "If it is God's will that all men (who ever lived, lives or will live) will be saved, and THEN gives man the free will as to whether or not they will choose salvation, is God still sovereign?" I would have to answer "no". In the latter case, God has elevated man's will above His own and relinquished His sovereignty with respect to salvation.

    IMO, either Arminians are going to have to re-interpret the verse "God is not willing that any should perish" or they are going to have to admit that God has relinquished His sovereignty with respect to salvation.

    Personally, I don't think it is possible to read the Bible and get the impression that God has, at any time, ever reliquished His sovereignty at any level.
     
  7. Ray Berrian

    Ray Berrian New Member

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    God in His Divine plan has never and will at any time leave something out of His design in the Providence of His created, human beings.

    When the archangel fell and God cast him down to earth, did things kind of get out of His control. No. The Bible says, that when God 'found iniquity' in the archangel the Lord cast him out of Heaven. Almighty God was and remains sovereign having everything under His control and yet He in His Divine plan allowed for the vulnerability of this archangel as well as for Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden. Did God know both the archangel and Adam and Eve would fall? Yes, but He did not preordain their fall otherwise, being God of Divine justice would have diminished His perfection within the Godhead. Though God designed the vulnerability of the archangel and Adam and Eve He in no way manipulated their evil decisions. A Calvinist professor at Reformed Episcopal Seminary taught us, 'He {Jesus} is not it; and it is not He.' At least Dr. Kuehner had this truth correct.

    We know that God did not make a mistake in the portrait of humanity by allowing, within His Divine right, the ability of the archangel and humanity to experience the Fall. In that there was not the slip of the brush, means that even this flaw in Adam and Eve did not detract one iota from the governance of His perfect and unique plan for the civilization of humankind.

    Sin also must be within His Divine plan, otherwise, He would not be perfect God. Hell was not an after thought of the Being of God; He knows it all and has planned for every eventuality that will ever happen. And if you cherish the word, sovereignty, then this explains His complete and consummate control over all things in our world and in His universe.

    Although God is in control of everything, you will be more than hard pressed to find the theological word, 'Sovereignty' anywhere in the Bible. Calvinists have carelessly used this characterization of the Godhead to promote a 'tough as nails' God who damns and does whatever He wants to do with no thought toward all of His created beings, both human, angelic or the 'four beasts'/living creatures' {Greek=dzoa} in Revelation chapter four. These living creatures were created by Almighty God to offer worship and adoration to the Lamb of God, our Savior.

    Many theological books on the attributes of God never write about sovereignty because it is not explicitly stated anywhere in the Bible; the holiness, love, justice and mercy of God are part of the explanation of the Triune Godhead. In spite of this fact, Calvinism invented this word and than hammers us with it to try to prove the autocratic rule of Almighty God, while neglecting the permissive will of God in matters of the fall of the archangel, the Fall of man, and the total redemption [I Timothy 2:6 & I John 2:2] offered by the Holy Spirit to all who will believe in Christ. [John 1:12, John 3:16 & I John 5:12-13]

    The foreknowledge of God [Romans 8:29 & I Peter 2:2a] is taught in Scripture. By this the Lord means that His Divine election is a reality. That unmistaken election takes place only in the lives of those who willingly receive God's glorious Son, our Savior. It is a fact that He knew from all eternity who will be among those who will be with Him in this never ending eternal life.

    Berrian, Th.D.
     
  8. npetreley

    npetreley New Member

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    You explain this away only because you have a personal concept of what divine justice means. There is no scripture to back up what you say, and your conclusion is not even logical. If, before God created satan, God foreknew that satan would fall, then God is ultimately responsible for the consequences. Nobody forced God to create a being He knew would fall. The only way to let God "off the hook" is to say that God was taken by surprise. And I'm fairly certain nobody here would make that claim.

    I'm speechless. Here are quotes from just ONE book of the Bible.

    Isaiah 7:7
    Yet this is what the Sovereign LORD says: " 'It will not take place, it will not happen,

    Isaiah 25:8
    he will swallow up death forever. The Sovereign LORD will wipe away the tears from all faces; he will remove the disgrace of his people from all the earth. The LORD has spoken.

    Isaiah 28:16
    So this is what the Sovereign LORD says: "See, I lay a stone in Zion, a tested stone, a precious cornerstone for a sure foundation; the one who trusts will never be dismayed.

    Isaiah 30:15
    This is what the Sovereign LORD , the Holy One of Israel, says: "In repentance and rest is your salvation, in quietness and trust is your strength, but you would have none of it.

    Isaiah 40:10
    See, the Sovereign LORD comes with power, and his arm rules for him. See, his reward is with him, and his recompense accompanies him.

    Isaiah 48:16
    "Come near me and listen to this: "From the first announcement I have not spoken in secret; at the time it happens, I am there." And now the Sovereign LORD has sent me, with his Spirit.

    Isaiah 49:22
    This is what the Sovereign LORD says: "See, I will beckon to the Gentiles, I will lift up my banner to the peoples; they will bring your sons in their arms and carry your daughters on their shoulders.

    Isaiah 50:4
    The Sovereign LORD has given me an instructed tongue, to know the word that sustains the weary. He wakens me morning by morning, wakens my ear to listen like one being taught.

    Isaiah 50:5
    The Sovereign LORD has opened my ears, and I have not been rebellious; I have not drawn back.

    Isaiah 50:7
    Because the Sovereign LORD helps me, I will not be disgraced. Therefore have I set my face like flint, and I know I will not be put to shame.

    Isaiah 50:9
    It is the Sovereign LORD who helps me. Who is he that will condemn me? They will all wear out like a garment; the moths will eat them up.

    Isaiah 51:22
    This is what your Sovereign LORD says, your God, who defends his people: "See, I have taken out of your hand the cup that made you stagger; from that cup, the goblet of my wrath, you will never drink again.

    Isaiah 52:4
    For this is what the Sovereign LORD says: "At first my people went down to Egypt to live; lately, Assyria has oppressed them.

    Isaiah 56:8
    The Sovereign LORD declares- he who gathers the exiles of Israel: "I will gather still others to them besides those already gathered."

    Isaiah 61:1
    The Spirit of the Sovereign LORD is on me, because the LORD has anointed me to preach good news to the poor. He has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim freedom for the captives and release from darkness for the prisoners,

    Isaiah 61:11
    For as the soil makes the sprout come up and a garden causes seeds to grow, so the Sovereign LORD will make righteousness and praise spring up before all nations.

    Isaiah 65:13
    Therefore this is what the Sovereign LORD says: "My servants will eat, but you will go hungry; my servants will drink, but you will go thirsty; my servants will rejoice, but you will be put to shame.

    Isaiah 65:15
    You will leave your name to my chosen ones as a curse; the Sovereign LORD will put you to death, but to his servants he will give another name.


    Perhaps you should take your own advice from another thread...

     
  9. npetreley

    npetreley New Member

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    Ray,

    On the topic of sovereignty (as opposed to the word "sovereign"):

    Isaiah 45
    7 I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD , do all these things.


    Proverbs 16:4
    The LORD has made all for Himself, Yes, even the wicked for the day of doom.


    Lamentations 3:37 Who can speak and have it happen if the Lord has not decreed it? 38 Is it not from the mouth of the Most High that both calamities and good things come?

    Acts 17:24 "The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by hands. 25 And he is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything, because he himself gives all men life and breath and everything else. 26 From one man he made every nation of men, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he determined the times set for them and the exact places where they should live.

    Matthew 10:29
    Are not two sparrows sold for a copper coin? And not one of them falls to the ground apart from your Father's will.


    John 19:11 Jesus answered, "You would have no power over me if it were not given to you from above. Therefore the one who handed me over to you is guilty of a greater sin."

    Jeremiah 27:4 Give them a message for their masters and say, 'This is what the LORD Almighty, the God of Israel, says: "Tell this to your masters: 5 With my great power and outstretched arm I made the earth and its people and the animals that are on it, and I give it to anyone I please.

    Psalm 22
    28 for dominion belongs to the LORD and he rules over the nations.


    Job 41
    11 Who has a claim against me that I must pay? Everything under heaven belongs to me.


    Psalm 24:1 The earth is the LORD's, and everything in it, the world, and all who live in it;

    ...and so on...

    If the theology books you bought don't focus on the sovereignty of God, it sure isn't because you can't find it in the Bible. If I were you, I'd return those theology books and ask for a refund.
     
  10. CalifLady

    CalifLady New Member

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    Good Morning All..I have been away for a week and sure have missed the awesome discussions here. While I was away I learned something about how I came to the "free will" conclusion. For many years I held that Arminian doctrine. I am not saying all have gone about this the same way but what I did was to take the free will doctrine and search out scripture to support it. As we all know there are tons of verses that can be found that appear to support man's ability to choose to follow Jesus or not. But, then somehow, following my prayers for God to make me love Him more, a light was turned on somewhere and God's sovereignity in salvation made since to me for the first time ever. And this week I realized what happened was I started searching the scriptures looking to support God's sovereignity in salvation, election and such. And as I learned what the Word has to say about His sovereign ways my love for Him grew and so has my faith. But then to try to fit "free will" into that doctrine....it would not fit. So, in conclusion when I began with free will I was able to fit the puzzle pieces together but when I started with God's sovereignity free will just does not seem to have a place. I hope this makes some since and is not just a jumble of words.
    Thanks for being here. I have learned so much here.
    CalifLady
     
  11. Ian Major

    Ian Major New Member

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    CalifLady said
    So, in conclusion when I began with free will I was able to fit the puzzle pieces together but when I started with God's sovereignity free will just does not seem to have a place. I hope this makes some since and is not just a jumble of words.

    Bless you, Dear Sister, for this testimony to God's grace. Yes, I'm sure most of us who have come to rest in His Sovereignty did not start out so believing. We came from the carnal reasoning of man; even as babes in Christ our thoughts were so distorted. But God has led us on to higher things, not for any brilliance of ourselves, but of His grace and mercy.

    In Him

    Ian
     
  12. The Archangel

    The Archangel Well-Known Member

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    Should I suppose there are contradictions in Romans? Or is there something we're missing here.
    Rom 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath showed it unto them.
    Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

    Now if man can't hear or understand or know God with out regeneration then this verse is a mistake.

    When I read Romans 3:9-12 I don't see anything there about being unable to respond. In fact I've never read that anywhere in scripture. All I see is Paul quoting scripture from the old testament. I have never read anything about anyone being unable to respond to the Gospel. Please underline if you would, just where it clearly says we are unable to respond?

    If you look at your concordance you will see that Paul is quoting what a fool has said in his heart Psa 14 and Psa 51.

    I believe what Paul is demonstrating here is the problems of the law. And how they relate to what the fool had said in his heart. The problems one runs in to when trying to live by the law. Your soul just won't have it. But we do not live according to the law. Everyone of us sins there is no one righteous by the law. Only by Christ do we have any righteousness. If we could be righteous by the law we would indeed have something to bragg about.

    Rom 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
    Rom 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

    What the fool has said in his heart is what the law gives man. Which IMHO is self defeating when you try to keep the law. As difficult as it is, so much so that you just give up. Which the history of the Jews in the wilderness clearly showed in that even though all the miracles worked by God for there benefit God's law of Righteousness was impossible to keep. No one was ever saved by the law.

    May God Bless You;
    Mike [​IMG]
    </font>[/QUOTE]Mike,

    Thanks for the blessing; it has been a good week. God has recently provided a new opportunity for me. I am amazed at His grace towards me--and I am totally humbled and thankful.

    You referenced Romans 1. I'll post it again for purposes of ease:

    Romans 1:18-23 (ESV)
    For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. [19] For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. [20] For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. [21] For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. [22] Claiming to be wise, they became fools, [23] and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.


    In this passage, Paul is not talking about salvation. He is taking great pains to build a case against mankind. He is establishing guilt. So, this passage is saying that there is enough knowledge of God to condemn man for not responding.

    Not Responding. Again, Biblical Calvinism affirms the need for each individual to respond to God. We simply affirm the other parts of scripture which state that man cannot. Therefore, man must be enabled to respond to God, we call this regeneration.

    "What Can Be Known About God," is related to the Idea that some things God has not revealed. Certainly the "Heavens show His handiwork" and give a living testimony to His existance. However, this is not enough to save anyone, yet it would seem it is enough to condemn all people.

    Much of God's power and majesty is able to be seen by unregenerate people. Yet they do not ascribe the "Credit" to God. This is a condition of their spiritually dead state.

    As for the Romans 3 Passage. I knew Paul was quoting; he is very fond of that. His words still express what the words of the OT expressed: 1) There are no one who are righteous, 2) There is no one who understands, and 3) There is no one who seeks God.

    If I may suggest a commentary that explains things very well--Leon Morris "The Epistle to the Romans" in The Pillar New Testament Commentary

    Certainly you are free to believe what you will. I just thought you'd get a kick out of this commentary.

    Blessings to you too!!! [​IMG]

    Archangel
     
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