God unchanging and unchangeable

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by Iconoclast, Nov 11, 2015.

  1. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast
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    No open theism here....

    http://www.romans45.org/spurgeon/sermons/0001.htm

     
    #1 Iconoclast, Nov 11, 2015
    Last edited: Nov 11, 2015
  2. Iconoclast

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    "I am the Lord, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed."—Malachi 3:6

    [​IMG]
    t has been said by some one that "the proper study of mankind is man." I will not oppose the idea, but I believe it is equally true that the proper study of God's elect is God; the proper study of a Christian is the Godhead
     
  3. robustheologian

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    Most people won't admit that to hold to libertarianism consistently is to embrace open theism. But you can't hold to a libertarian sense of free will and the orthodox Christian belief of God's omniscience...even the open theists are logical enough to realize that.
     
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  4. Iconoclast

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    Failing to properly consider and meditate on God's perfections will always result in defective theology.....there is always a lack of trust in God Himself to question that he is absolute control of whatsoever comes to pass....
    I enjoyed this sermon as it has surfaced in some churches as a contemporary issue..
    here is a series of six sermons that get at it....
    http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?sid=122152341516
    http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?sid=125151646243
    http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?sid=211515241810
    http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?sid=2815161585
    http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?sid=223151755175
    http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?sid=31152217110
     
  5. Deacon

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    Pardon my question, teach me!
    What exactly is "a libertarian sense of free will"?
    Do you fee there are different classifications of free will?

    Please expound on the statement that man's free will and God's omniscience are mutually exclusive ideas.

    Rob
     
  6. Iconoclast

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    Hello Rob
    While we make choices [sometimes spoken of as free agency} I do not believe free will exists. It is a false philosophical construct.
    I found this link that might be helpful.
    Some believers use the terminology of free will....even some theologians, but then they go into great length to explain it away anyhow....
    I just make the case against it from the get go.
    here is that link however...

    http://www.theopedia.com/libertarian-free-will
     
  7. Deacon

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    Thanks for the interesting link!
    I may be covering old ground but if free will does not exist why would sinners be condemned for their condition? Would not they be blameless?

    Your thread interested me because I'm currently reading Michael Heiser's, The Unseen Realm, and he interacts with the topic of free will.
    He mentions specifically 1 Samuel 23:1–13 [which is highly relevant to me because I'm currently walking two groups through the books of Samuel].

    Help me work through this.

    Rob
     
  8. agedman

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    I think one of the greatest works on this topic can be found in the exploration done by Jonathan Edwards.

    Here are two links (they both give the text but one is "interactive" and if you like to read a bit and come back it is better, imo).

    Freedom of the Will


    Freedom of the Will - interactive


    A word of caution. This is not an easy read. He is most wordy in making certain that he is precise and thorough in every point.

    But, once you work your way through the material, it will give you a solid basis from which to balance other works and other thinking.

    Trust this helps, especially if you are not familiar with this side of the topic. :)
     
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  9. Deacon

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    I guess I can call myself ignorant on the topic.
    It hasn't interested me for a very long time.

    As a newly hatched, young teen Christian I performed an experiment to determine the will of God concerning a simple path home.
    My conclusion was that whatever way I went, God was with me.
    Since then I considered the topic of free will settled and unimportant.

    I searched my personal digital library and have an unread copy of Freedom of the Will.
    I so detest the way they wrote back then... It didn't bother me so much when I was younger;
    my mind was more flexible.
    I'll have to spend a few mornings reading it.

    Rob
     
  10. robustheologian

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    The libertarian definition of free will would be the ability to make choices undetermined and uncoerced. While the reformed definition of free will is to choose what one wants...even if it is determined or coerced.

    It's impossible for man's free will and God's omniscience to be mutually exclusive. The second something is excluded from God's omniscience, God's omniscience is no longer omniscience.
     
  11. agedman

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    I agree that the writing back then was not what we probably would enjoy. And, especially in this work, it is very tedious because the author wanting to leave no inroad of misinformation.

    I recommend that you don't rush through it, but read it in comprehendable chunks. If your mornings are like mine, the mind is at rest far longer than the body. :)
     
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  12. robustheologian

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    Definitely in my top 5 books every Christian should read.
     
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  13. Iconoclast

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    http://www.spurgeon.org/sermons/0052.htm

    Rob....simply put....your will is bound by your nature.
    God being PERFECT in Holiness, is not "free" to sin....it is impossible.
    In heaven we will not be free to sin.

    Even now...we are not free to sin, but to serve. Just in this body of flesh we are still able to sin...
    17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

    18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

    19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.

    20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.

    21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.
     
  14. SovereignGrace

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    Brother Deacon(Rob), whether one is saved or lost, their will is never free as one would define that word. Free means no restrictions, no boundaries, nothing hindering it. Our will as a sinner was bound by our nature, as others on here have already stated. It was not that we could not search for Him, but rather we would not. There was no one restraining us from doing this but us. We had zero desire to seek for Him in our fallen state. However, when God sought us out and drew us unto Himself...insert regeneration here...we began seeking for Him. Why? He had changed our nature. With a new nature came a new will and new desires to serve, worship, and cherish Him.
     
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  15. Benjamin

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    Rolleyes
    Calvinist logic of free will:

    Bill C: “God determined all things that ever happen, He is Sovereign."
    Bob A: "Did God determine the things Jeffrey Dahmer did?"
    Bill C: "No, Jeffrey Dahmer did what he did because of his nature."
    Bob A: "Who determined Jeffrey Dahmer’s nature?"
    Bill C: "God did, He determines all things, He is Sovereign."

    o_O
     
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  16. robustheologian

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    Someone obviously doesn't know about the Calvinist logic of free will...you should read Jonathan Edwards "Freedom of the Will". That would give you better insight into the Calvinist logic of free will. And it goes more like this:

    Bill C: "God determined everything because He knows everything."
    Bob A: "Did God determine the things Jeffrey Dahmer did?"
    Bill C: "Did God determine the crucifixion of God's innocent Son?"
    Bob A: *Bob reads Acts 2 and Acts 4* "Yes, He did!"
    Bill C: "So if God determined the worst act in human history, could He have determined the things Jeffrey Dahmer did?"
    Bob A: :oops:
     
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  17. SovereignGrace

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    Awesome!! Simply awesome!!
     
  18. Deacon

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    Started the book last night; what an ugly book to read!
    Definitely not reader friendly.
    In his long introduction he finally says he has nothing more to say, and then goes on for another 200 words.
    So far it seems to be a book against Arminianism rather than about free will.

    Rob
     
  19. InTheLight

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    Sounds like the time I tried to read Martin Luther's "Bondage of the Will". The man could have benefited from an editor!
     
  20. robustheologian

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    It is a monster to read...I think that's why most schools recommend purchasing a study guide to go along with it. And it is against the libertarian definition of free will. The reason it seems like it's against Arminianism is because that incorrect concept of libertarian free will is at the center of Arminianism.
     
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