God's Anger and His Wrath

Discussion in 'Bible Versions/Translations' started by Mel Miller, Sep 13, 2006.

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  1. Mel Miller

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    Friends,

    What is the difference between God's anger and His wrath
    as found in Rom.2:4-5; Rom.9:22 and Rev.14:10? Which
    comes first ... the anger or the wrath ... and why?
    Mel Miller www.lastday.net :thumbs:
     
  2. Mel Miller

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    God's Anger and Wrath

    Friends,

    Please notice in Rev.14:10, whether KJV or NASB, "God's
    wrath mixes in the Cup of Indignation or Anger" RATHER
    than "the wine of God's ANGER mixes in the Cup of Wrath"!

    How does Rom.2:4-5 and Rom.9:22 shed light on this error
    in translation?
    Mel Miller www.lastday.net :thumbs:
     
  3. Lacy Evans

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    error-schmerror
     
  4. Marcia

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    God has wrath on sin; it will be poured out on those not in Christ. I am not sure there is a difference between his wrath and his anger.

    Also, you did not say which translation/version you are referring to as far as the "error" goes.
     
  5. Mel Miller

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    God's Anger and Wrath

    _____________________________________________________________

    Yes, Marcia, I mentioned the two translations that translate THUMOS
    as "WRATH" instead of as "ANGER" ... the KJV and the NASB! The "wine of God's ANGER mixes full strength in the Cup of Wrath" after the last Plague empties in the air!! The Plagues do NOT "complete God's wrath" because
    the last Plague empties in the air before that Cup pours out the "wine of its ANGER and WRATH" immediately after the 7th Trumpet announces that "God's wrath has come"!!! Rev.16:19-21.

    Mel Miller www.lastday.net :thumbs:
     
  6. Mel Miller

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    God's Anger and Wrath

    Please consider the evidence for not equating anger & wrath! The word for anger (thumos; #2372) has a revealing synonym that translators and interpreters have failed to consider in finding the difference!! That word
    in the Greek is makro-thumos, #3115; "long-anger"; and it's translated as "long-suffering" (Latin) or as "patience"!!! Rom.9:22; 2 Pet.3:9.

    Peter reveals "makro-thumos" continues for 1000 years but is like no more than a single day to God! Editors of the KJV had 1000 years since the Latin Vulgate to recognize God's anger has continued for 1000 years!!
    Editors of the New KJV have had 400 years of added scholarship to consider that God's "long-anger" endures until "the wine of His anger mixes full strength with His wrath" on a single DAY of God's and the Lamb's wrath"!!! 2 Pet.3:9; Rev.14:10; Rev.6:16-17; Rev.16:19; Rev.19:15.

    Instead, both the KJV and NKJV (as well as the NASB) mixes God's "wrath
    with His anger" instead of "anger with His wrath"! Revelation predicts the mixture of ANGER in the Cup of WRATH in the first of only three places that John combines the two words in the same verse!! [This one verse (Rev.14:10) requires the end of God's wrath upon the Jews (Luke 21:22-24) and predicts the mixture of His anger and wrath upon unrepentant Beast-worshipers as of the DAY Christ comes with ALL the Saints.] The other 2 verses FULFILL the prediction after the Last Plague "completes God's thumos"; anger; Rev.15:1,7; Rev.16:1. Then comes anger + wrath; Rev.16:19 (19-21) and Rev.19:15 (15-21)]!!!

    "What if God, wanting to show His WRATH (orgay), endured with much LONG-ANGER (macro-thumia) the vessels of Wrath prepared for destruction ... not knowing the goodness of God leads to repentance ...
    for they are treasuring up WRATH (to come) in a (single) DAY of the righteous judgment of God". Rom.9:22; Rom.2:4-5.

    The combined execution of God's anger and wrath occurs only on the DAY Christ comes with ALL the Saints and destroys ALL who refuse to repent!
    Only those who "keep begging the Lord to escape will be able to stand before the Son of Man"!! They will be "kept alive" after Jesus "gathers the elect from earth to heaven"!!! Mark 13:27; Luke 21:25-36; Luke 17:33.

    Mel Miller www.lastday.net :thumbs:
     
  7. Lacy Evans

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    I don't equate error and wrath. Neither does the KJV. Anger vs. wrath is a good question. Dogmatically stating that it is a "mistranslation" is presumptuous.


    The Greek? Which one? How are you so eminently qualified to determine whether the venerated, Holy Spirit led translators made a mistake. Do you understand all the contextual nuances of the Greek that you happen to have? Are you sure that your Greek is the right one?(We have another forum for this discussion.)


    I ask you to consider the nearly 400 years of Fruit/evidence.

    Lacy
     
  8. Mel Miller

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    _____________________________________________________________

    Lacy, my reference text is the exact same Greek-Text used by translators of the KJV 400 years ago ... Baker's Interlinear Greek-English NT! It was their Greek text from which they never translated thumos as "anger"!! It was this Greek text from which they translated thumos as "wrath" in Rev.14:10,19; Rev.15:1,7; Rev.16:1 and as "indignation" in Rev.14:10 and as "fierceness" in Rev.16:19 and Rev.19:15!! Continuing the inconsistency, after correctly translating ORGAY (3709) as "wrath" in Rev.6:16-17 and Rev.11:18, they proceded to translate THUMOS (2372) as "wrath" in the above five verses BUT, as both ORGAY and THUMOS occur in Rev.16:19 and Rev.19:15, they changed the translation of thumos from "wrath" to "fierceness"!!!

    Why did KJV translaters never, not once, translate THUMOS as "anger"?

    The Early Church Fathers imbibed the teaching of Plato who recognized that the great difference between thumos and orgay should disallow any reference to God as being subject to the human "perturbations of anger"!
    This acceptance continued to affect the KJV translators so that they never translated thumos as "anger"; not even in verses like Eph.4:31 where both words apply to humans instead of to God!! But the incorrect translation that the Plagues "complete God's wrath" has led to the false teaching that God's wrath lasts from 1260 days to seven years!!!

    God's ANGER is "long" (makro thumia) and reveals His "patience because He is not willing that any should perish"! 2 Pet.3:9. God's WRATH is quick and total and devastating the Day Christ comes with ALL the Saints!! The wine of God's ANGER does not "mix full strength in the cup of wrath nor pour out its anger and wrath" until the "Last Plague empties in the air" ON THE DAY Christ comes in flaming fire to avenge the blood of Saints and to destroy earth's cities and mountains!!! Rev.16:19-21; 2 Thess.1:7-10.

    Therefore, the Plagues neither "complete NOR contain God's wrath"! Even the Beast-Worshipers are given the option to "repent" in the 4th and 5th Plagues; but they continue to "blaspheme God" and gather to Armageddon
    to destroy Israelis!! That, Jesus affirms, is "when He comes as a thief" to rescue them; but with so little time to repent that He urges even Saints to "keep their clothes on lest they be seen naked"!!! Rev.16:14-16.

    Mel Miller www.lastday.net :godisgood:
     
  9. Lacy Evans

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  10. Alcott

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    [qb]What is the difference between God's anger and His wrath[/qb]

    Well, scripture says his anger "burned" against certain people or nations, so wrath must be the brand of hot dogs he makes out of them.
     
  11. av1611jim

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    Date setters and error finders and artists should all get together and give us a new and up-to-date series of "Looney Tunes"!:BangHead:
     
  12. Lacy Evans

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    I'm 50% Labradore retriever.

    I'll prove it.

    Get me a Labradore and I'll retrieve it.

    Have you got a Labradore?

    Know where you can get a Labradore?



    Then Shaddup!!!

    Lacy
     
  13. Mel Miller

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    ____________________________________________________________

    Lacy,

    I am perplexed by your "holier than thou" support of the King James translators as being guided by the Holy Spirit, without their making a "mistake", AND then, after your facetious remarks about their failure to ever translate THUMOS as "anger", you just pass off the fact that they changed its meaning from that of "wrath" to "indignation or to fierceness" whenever it occurs with ORGAY in the same verse. I do all my studies in the KJV Greek Text and like you, I don't "equte error with wrath"; but you treated my question with disdain by suggesting I should think of them as a "bunch of retards". Then you approved of av1611jim's remark that "Date setters and error finders should all get together and give us a new and up-to-date series of `Looney Tunes'"! :BangHead:
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Mel Miller
    Why did KJV translaters never, not once, translate THUMOS as "anger"?


    "They were probably a bunch of retards". Lacy
    By inferring I should "shaddup" rather than give me an answer, do you have no qualms about the inconsistency of translating this unique word that means ANGER as if it means WRATH when it stands alone; but then only means "indignation or fury" when combined with ORGAY? Why did the Holy Spirit fail to show them that "macro-thumia", long-anger, must bridge God's ANGER and WRATH for nearly 2000 years before these two emotions will at last combine, on the Day of Wrath, to destroy all who refuse to repent? Mel Miller
     
  14. Mel Miller

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    Friends,

    We need to understand why Orgay (#3709), rather than Macro-thumos (#3115), is listed as a synonym for Thumos (#2372), with the supposition that “anger and wrath” are interchangeable. Only Orgay has the meaning of punitive wrath that results in Hell. The words Thumos and Macro-thumos do not refer to a vengeful God. For God’s righteous “anger” precedes His “wrath” and His “long-anger” continues until it explodes in vindictive punishment!!!

    Strong’s Concordance interprets Orgay and Thumos as meaning "anger and/or wrath". It wrongly makes them synonymous, not because Orgay means “anger”, but because translators of the KJV inversely translated their meanings where anger applies to men rather than to God: Eph.4:31 and Col.3:8. If the translators had not done this, Strong’s could not have listed Thumos as meaning “wrath”!

    It is not the Holy Spirit’s fault that men never interpreted Thumos as “anger”; but did so only by inversely translating these two words! The Holy Spirit in Col.2:8 warns against falling “prey to philosophy and vain deceit after the tradition of men”!! Then the H.S. in Col.3:8 reveals Thumos applies to men just as it applies five times to God in Rev.14:10 thru Rev.16:1; but the KJV translators followed the vain philosophy and deceit of man’s tradition ever since Plato claimed that God is not affected by the “perturbations of human anger”!!!

    By applying Orgay (as “anger”) and Thumos (as “wrath”) to men, the translators switched the meanings so that both words have come to mean anger or wrath! They consistently mistranslated Thumos as “wrath” in respect to God!! They made Thumos synonymous with Orgay and overlooked that God’s “long-anger” (long-suffering, patience or endurance) will continue until the Day Christ comes in glory with ALL the Saints!!!

    The Day of God's "anger and wrath" is a single 12-Hour-Day.

    Mel Miller www.lastday.net :thumbs:
     
  15. Lacy Evans

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    First of all forgive me for my sarcasm. I have just debated the KJVO issue until I'm blue in the face. (Wrong forum BTW) And you kind of struck a nerve.

    My whole poiint is that no modern day person with a strong's concordance and perhaps a few semesters of Greek is more qualified than that assembled, accountable committee of some of history's finest scholars. Did you read their Bio's?

    Are you sure you completely understand the nuances of the English words "wrath" and "Anger". Have you perhaps ignored possible shades of their meaning, dogmatically assigned them your own rigid definitions and doctrines, and then declared the translators "a bunch of retards" (I realize that those are my words but that is how you make me feel when you start talking about the KJV's "errors." That is the way that it seems like you think.) for not matching your Greek with your English?

    Lacy
     
  16. Lacy Evans

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    So now you are blaming the KJV translatorsfor the "mistakes" in your Strong's?

    Oie Vay!

    lacy:tonofbricks:

    PS. Wrong Forum!
     
  17. Ed Edwards

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    Mel Miller: //If the translators had not done this, Strong’s could not have listed Thumos as meaning “wrath”!//

    I have to agree with Brother Mel Miller on this point. :1_grouphug:

    This is frequent in Strong's.
    Strong's lists all the meanings they know, then add
    the KJV translation(s) as the last terms.
     
  18. Lacy Evans

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    I expected no less of you my Brother. BTW, How have you been? I have missed our mutually sophomoric banter. I pray you are in good health.

    God Bless, Lacy
     
  19. Mel Miller

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    God's Anger and Wrath

     
  20. Ed Edwards

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    Thank you for the prayers.
    I'm in good health. I retired 2 Aug 2006 after 34 years
    with the company. I'm also trying to raise 2 grandchildren.
    I have little, if any, time for the BB (Baptist Board).

    I also like to argue - er - debate with Brother Mel Miller, so I
    thought I could make a quick 'agree' and get a point with
    him.
     
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