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God's Anger and His Wrath

Discussion in 'Bible Versions & Translations' started by Mel Miller, Sep 13, 2006.

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  1. EdSutton

    EdSutton New Member

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    Actually for both Ed and Mel, I was thinking more in a hysterical - Oh!-'er I mean historical sense. Mel usually posts a few times a day, and had not posted that I had seen for a few days. I always enjoy reading his posts, even having little time to respond to most posts I read. So it had been for Mel, a long time. And if Mel does not post, Then I cannot see it. Hence, "Long time, no see!" is not a joke, Mel, for a change from me, but say8ng in other woreds, "It's good to 'see' you back." Ladies and germs, the hayfield beckons. Gotta' run.

    Ed
     
    #41 EdSutton, Oct 3, 2006
  2. robycop3

    robycop3 Well-Known Member
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    Mr. Miller, there IS quite a difference in OUR anger/wrath and that of GOD'S!

    Let's start with human weakness. In my BC days, I was quite a violent person, easily becoming angry and LOSING CONTROL in my anger, doing things I later saw were STUPID. In my WRATH, I plotted revenge against perceived enemies & carried out my plots more than once. As an "Oakland Rider" type of cop, I became extremely upset more than once to see a crook I'd worked long & hard to bust, getting a walk. I plotted more than once to waste both that crook & the judge who'd let him go, but thankfully I never carried out those plots.

    Both my anger and my wrath had gotten outta control at times, while GOD'S is always in control, with the results certain. He has appointed a time when He will culminate His wrath and His anger, but, unlike us, He can keep it under perfect control, and, again unlike ours, it won't fade in time; God will deal with unrepentant sinners in the manner He'd planned from the gitgo.

    Again, this is "much ado about nothing". God's ways are infinitely superior to ours. Whetever He ordains happens. Unlike ours, HIS emotions are perfect, always in control, always perfectly just. And that includes His anger/wrath. Were they NOT in His perfect control, He woulda simply blanked out the devil when he sinned & started over.
     
    #42 robycop3, Oct 3, 2006
  3. Mel Miller

    Mel Miller New Member

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    God's Anger and Wrath

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    Averting my question by repeating "this is much ado about nothing" gives no answer for the reason "God's anger mixes full strength with His wrath on the Day of Wrath". We agree that God is in control to the End. But what leads God to declare: "The End has Come, i.e., It has Occurred" as soon as the last Plague empties in the air?

    The Catholic Bible, called "The New Jerusalem Bible", was published a century after that of Darby; yet both broke out of the "mold" set by philosophies of human origin! Even the Living Bible paraphrase was not bound by those philosophies!! So, until you or anyone offers a better explanation (than that of human philosophy) to explain WHY all major translations "mix wrath (thumos) with indignation or wrath (orgay) or anger" instead of mixing God's "exhausted anger" (Rev.14:10; Rev.15:1; Rev.16:19; Rev.19:15) with His irreversible wrath ON THE DAY OF WRATH, then I take it you are still stuck in the mold of "men's traditions"!!!

    Compare Col.2:8 and the inverted translation for "anger and wrath" in the KJV of Col.3:8 and please explain the "why" of my question.

    Mel Miller www.lastday.net :thumbs:
    Rev.16:17
     
    #43 Mel Miller, Oct 4, 2006
  4. robycop3

    robycop3 Well-Known Member
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    No, it's a simple matter of semantics. If I'm MAD over something, fors that make me a mad man or a madman? If I'm JACKED over something, have I been mechanically lifted into the air? Or, am I either excited or quite angry, according to the context?

    Any and all sin has displeased God to some degree. Some sins He calls ABOMINATIONS, and you must agree that committing those sins would make Him more angry than others might. One must be angry to have wrath, but, unlike us, God is storing His anger/wrath until the day He has appointed to begin the punishments of all who die in sin.

    Many of the various translators simply don't see enough difference to worry about it. Sin has angered God. God has set a day to punish all unforgiven sinners, a day for Him to expend His stored-up wrath. Whether it's called wrath or anger, it's God's strong displeasure with sin and those who have committed sins which haven't been forgiven.
     
    #44 robycop3, Oct 4, 2006
  5. Mel Miller

    Mel Miller New Member

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    God's Anger Precedes His Wrath

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    When is God’s “Day of Wrath”? Rom.2:5; Rev.6:17. Should we follow the teaching that God’s wrath begins when He again deals with Israel at the revelation of Antichrist? Or does His wrath (orgay) follow the “end of days” when Christ in “flaming fire takes vengeance in one day on all who reject the Gospel”? 2 Thess.
    1:10. Is God’s wrath a 7-year process or just a one day affair? The latter view was the belief of early Church Fathers. But a teaching of Plato, that God is too exalted to be affected by “perturbations of anger” (thumos) led to substituting "anger" for "wrath" and gave rise to the belief that, to escape His Plagues of so-called "wrath", Christians will be removed from earth during the Endtime of great tribulation and wrath (instead of thumos, anger, as found in the Greek text)!

    This tradition of the great difference between anger and wrath has filtered down thru Bibles due to Plato’s philosophy as per “The Dictionary of the Apostolic Church”, published in 1917, by T. Clark. God’s “makro-thumos” (long-anger) was translated as “long-suffering”. But to avoid translating “thumos” as “anger”, it was usually translated as “wrath”! Unfortunately this removed the difference! Thumos and orgay became synonyms instead of antonyms after the “vain tradition” of Plato and Church Fathers! Col.2:8.

    As a result, most Christians believe “virtually no difference exists between God’s anger and wrath”! Paul wrote: “On the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, He will render to every man according to their deeds…eternal life to those who know His long-anger (makro-thumia) leads to repentance but indignation (thumos) and wrath (orgay; KJV) to the unrighteous”!! Rom.2:4-5,8. The NASB, based on later manuscripts which invert thumos and orgay, reveal that “wrath and indignation” come on the wicked so as to ostensibly avoid describing God as “angry”. Because of this variance in Rom.2:8, the meanings changed from antonyms to synonyms!!!

    The prevailing view today considers God’s anger and wrath as synonymous; that we must be removed from earth to escape the Plagues of God’s “wrath during the great tribulation”! God’s “long-anger” (makro-thumos) continues to the Day of Wrath according to Rom.2:4-5. Only then do “anger and wrath mix” together as “great earthquakes destroy earth’s cities and mountains, move its islands out of place and Christ comes from heaven to tread the winepress in anger and wrath”…and blood reaches the horses’ bridles”!! Because of Plato’s “vain tradition” of God’s aloofness, untouched by anger, translators inverted and without thinking made them mean the same thing; so effectively making even His “long-anger” mean the same as His Wrath!!!

    Translating Thumos as “wrath” made the 7 Last Plagues “complete God’s wrath” instead of “completing His anger”! To be “kept from God’s wrath” arguably means the Rapture must precede the Tribulation!! Viewing God's "long-anger" continuing until the Day of wrath is not "much ado about nothing"; but exposes the result of
    the "vain tradition of men" who refused to acknowledge that God can be angry!!!

    Mel Miller www.lastday.net :thumbs:
     
    #45 Mel Miller, Oct 5, 2006
  6. robycop3

    robycop3 Well-Known Member
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    Mel, it has nothing to do with Plato, "Church fathers", or the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles. God has said sin displeases Him, and that every sin must be paid for. Jesus Christ came to pay for these sins, and it's up to us to come to Him and accept His payment. But for sins unforgiven, God's gonna vent His anger/wrath at the time He has appointed. it doesn't matter one peep whether it's called God's anger or His wrath; it's God's DISPLEASURE, and He's gonna "set things right" at HIS appointed time. Again, this is simply a matter of semantics. Each person is living either under God's pleasure or His displeasure. It's up to us to show our neighbor living in sin that he/she is under God's displeasure, and what that person must do to come from under that displeasure. Muddling around with semantics doesn't change one little fact.

    Sorry, Mel, but you're preaching to the choir. We who are saved know what we had to do and believe to be saved, we know that if we had died unsaved we woulda been damned forever, and been punished eternally. I wouldn't wannabe under God's wrath OR His anger any more; the results woulda been the same.
     
    #46 robycop3, Oct 6, 2006
  7. Mel Miller

    Mel Miller New Member

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    God's Anger and Wrath not the Same

    Robycop3,

    You began with the assumption that there is practically no difference between God’s anger and wrath because they result in the same end.
    Quote:
     
    #47 Mel Miller, Oct 6, 2006
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