God's Devil

Ultimate, my apprentice- ultimate.

 

I miss this guy. Good guy and smart!:thumbs:

 

No way. Prove it.

 

No you don't. It is a mystery how it works. but what we KNOW for sure, even if NONE of us can explain it is

Romans 11:36 For of him, and through him, and to him, [are] all things: to whom [be] glory for ever. Amen.

and...

Colossians 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

and...

Eccl 7:13-14 Consider the work of God: who can make straight what He has made crooked? In the day of prosperity be joyful, and in the day of adversity consider: God has made the one as well as the other, so that man may not find out anything that will be after him.

and...

Lam 3:37-38 Who has spoken and it came to pass, unless the Lord has commanded it? Is it not from the mouth of the Most High that good and bad come?

and...

Ezekiel 14:9 And if the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the LORD have deceived that prophet, and I will stretch out my hand upon him, and will destroy him from the midst of my people Israel.


We don't have to understand how it all works together. I don't. You don't.

We may never. But we DO have to believe that God "worketh all things after the counsel of his own will"

 

Prove it I said. You have yet to even begin to do that.

Let me tell you why you THINK this.

You are used to debating Calvinists who utilize a strategy of debate that I do not utilize.

They try to make Calvinism more acceptable and palatable to people.

So you automatically think that what they are saying in veiled, sugar coated language is what they believe and even what Calvin believed.

It is most certainly not what Calvin believed as I am certain this exchange between us on this subject will reveal as it progresses.

It is not what the Westminster Confession professes.

It is simply not what Calvinism has historically believed.

Like it or not, I represent theologically- historic Calvinism.

Any one who tries to soften these matters does NOT represent historic Calvinism.

 

It has nothing to do with "further". Many Calvinists interpret John 3:16 to be a general love for all of mankind. Many others see it the way I see it.

"further" has nothing to do with it.

So you'll have to come up with better examples than that, Skan.

Not according to you. You may attempt to court Calvinists to try to use them in a debate against me, but thinking Calvinists know you undermine everything they believe.

We need to dig that up because you retreated int aht conversation after I'd unequivocally proved that Edwards did not believe what you were trying to make it sound like he believed.

I agree with Arminian divines on MANY things. That has nothing to do with where I stand as a historic Calvinist.

I am not running for office. Are you?

 

Nope. You've done no such thing. You have only shown that Callvin interpreted John 3:16 diffeently.

That proves nothing at all. It is worthless waste of time to even point out such a thing. WHO DOESN'T disagree with ANYONE ELSE on the PLANET about SOME things- even those who we are MOST like in this WORLD.

What a worthless waste of an argument.

"You don't agree with Calvin on John 3:16- HA!!!! SEE!!!! You're hypercalvinist!"

How silly.

You have Alzheimer's Skandelon. Or you're dishonest.

I did not define those terms for you for some time because only a moron sits around and answers questions on an opponent in a debate when his opponent will not answer any himself.

Listen. There is no intelligent person on earth with ANY church history training who thinks that Jonathan Edwards agrees with Arminians on the origin of evil.

I have proven this to you before.

You brought it up. You dig it up. I would be thrilled for you to do so. but dig up the whole thing. It spanned several threads.

Nope. You are still wrong about this. And I believe you finally admitted it. If I recall you admitted that Edwards may indeed have believed differently than the AD's on this issue but his remark made it sound to you like he agreed.

I have done this before.

BILLIONS of things. LIKE posting this post, for example.

NOTHING can happen unless God empowers it to happen.

Gravity is God's gravity.

Wind is God's wind.

The sun is God's sun.

There is no energy in the universe that is not God's.

In order for ANYTHING to EVER happen God has to bring it to pass.

BUT ALSO- in order for anything God brings to pass to come to pass he must PERMIT it- in other words he must not HINDER.

I type these words. I empower my fingers to type them. I also PERMIT my fingers to type them. I could stop what I empower. But if I am going to bring something to pass I must empower it and not prevent it. In other words I must permit it also.

 

I have NEVER said that God does not have a desire for all men to be saved.

You debate against so many Calvinists I suppose that you get your wires crossed.

Where have I said such a thing?

And ALL YOU POINT out is that I disagree with Calvin about John 3:16.

It is an absolutely WORTHLESS point you make here.

NOBODY agrees with ANYBODY about EVERYTHING.

So what?

If I take the time to dredge up those posts where I said repeatedly that I will not answer any more questions until you you respond to a particular point- if I do that you must start a post entitled "I was wrong and I am sorry" in the general baptist section. In that post you must apologize to me.

Deal?

So does every Christian on planet earth about SOME THINGS.

As a matter of fact I do not suppose there is a human who draws breath and has clarity of thought who does not agree with the Arminian divines about SOMETHING.

Saying that Edwards agrees with the Arminian divines on something is a meaningless argument.

What Edwards DOES believe is that God willed that evil be and brought it to pass by his own divine decree. I pointed out to you with this quote and OTHER quotes the last time we discussed this that this is what Edwards believed. You must have forgotten this which is why I questioned if you had Alzheimer's.

If the Arminian divines agree with that and so do you, please stop wasting my time.

You are wrong in your representation of what Edwards believed.

I pointed this out to you last time very clearly.

You apparently have forgotten.

Yes what God brings to pass he permits.

God says (not literally of course) "Luke is going to type this post. I am going to empower him to do so. I am going to order the universe so that it will infallibly come to pass. And when the time comes, I could prevent it, if I so chose (I do prevent things all the time) but I am NOT going to prevent it because it is my will that I am bringing to pass. Instead I will permit it."

I'm not doing the Dahmer thing. If your memory works at all you will recall that I explained why I think this is inappropriate the LAST time we had this very conversation.

You cannot discuss this matter without details. Dahmer's crimes do not allow us to discuss details.

I'll use the crucifixion of Christ since that is in the Bible.

They did what God's hand and God's counsel determined before to be done.

This is what you miss about Edwards. God absolutely PERMITTED Pilate and Herod and the Jews and the Romans to crucify Jesus. Absolutely permitted them to do it.

They had real wills and they made real choices.

BUT God also applied his hand and counsel to the matter. God himself brought it to pass WHILE PERMITTING IT.

He did this by ordering the events of the universe to lead to this act.

He also did this by removing his goodness from the situation because where God's goodness is absent all that is left is evil. In order for evil to exist all God must do is withdraw from the sinner. Sin will infallibly result. Evil is naught but the absence of good just as darkness is naught but the absence of light. God can bring something to pass MORALLY by simply removing his moral goodness which restrains the sinner from the sin.

God did this and disposed of the state of events so that it would INFALLIBLY come to pass and physically empowered the act of crucifying Jesus since nothing can move unless God moves it.

God had a hand in it.

Let me say it again- God had a hand in it.

His hand was- that he ordered the universe so that one event would lead to another (each event taking place by his own power- nothing can move unless God moves it- he is omnipotent- ALL power that is, is His) and event leading to event, generation after generation, led to this event.

God brought it to pass. He also permitted it.

Edwards says, "the permitter . . . of sin; and at the same time, a disposer of the state of events, in such a manner, for wise, holy and most excellent ends and purposes, that sin, if it be permitted . . . will most certainly and infallibly follow."

So then the intent to murder Christ- that evil that was in the heart of Herod and Pilate- that originated with God??