God's election

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Carico, Oct 11, 2009.

  1. Carico

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    I realize that many people don't believe that God elects even though the bible makes it very clear that He does. Jesus illustrates God's sovereign choice in the parable of the worker in MT. 20.

    But as always with the sinful human nature, the employees in the parable of the worker had the mentality; "that's not fair! I should get to decide how much my employer pays me and pays everyone else for that matter." Jesus explains, not so. Verse 15; "Don't I have the right to do what I want with my own money?" The sinful nature of man says "No."

    And it's the same with God as Romans 9:21, "Does not the potter have the right to mold out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?"

    The sinful nature says; "No, you don't. Everyone should have the right to enter your kingdom because we humans get to decide what's fair and what's not fair. You're not a fair God if you don't do things my way."

    The sinful nature is all about "me." The Spirit of God is all about God. So the sinful nature will never understand God's election. But the bottom line is that since no one but God knows who his elect are, then salvation is open to anyone who wants it because God gives those he is drawing the desire for Him. So it is fair after all and the sinful nature has nothing to complain about. God's plan is beautiful and the only one that can work because it opens salvation to anyone who wants it and at the same time, God still retains His sovereign choice. :godisgood:
     
    #1 Carico, Oct 11, 2009
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  2. OldRegular

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    The doctrine of Election magnifies the Grace of God. If it were not for the Triune God choosing some to salvation in Jesus Christ in eternity past then no one would be saved.

    Unrighteous man simply cannot comprehend the absolute holiness of God and the necessity of God taking the initiative in the salvation of His elect.
     
  3. Winman

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    Non-calvinists believe in election, we simply see it differently than you. I believe that God can see through all time and those that he sees will believe are the elect.

    Calvinists often use several verses from Romans 9 to prove their doctrine, but ignore the whole chapter which is contrasting faith to works. It is true that God said he will have mercy on whom he will show mercy and show wrath on whom he chooses, but if you read all the verses before this you will see he is speaking of showing mercy to those who answer the calling of faith and rejecting those who try to earn salvation by works.

    Rom 9:10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
    11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth; )
    12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.


    Here election is explained if you read it carefully. It shows that God knew before being born that Jacob would have faith, and Esau would not. It says the "purpose of God according to election" and then it explains what that is, "not of works, but of him that calleth".

    So these verses are showing God's foreknowledge, he knowing that Jacob would have faith and Esau would not before they were born which it clearly explains, and therefore choosing Jacob over Esau.

    You need to understand who Paul was preaching to in Romans 9. He was primarily preaching to Jews, although there were many Gentiles as well.

    Acts 28:16 And when we came to Rome, the centurion delivered the prisoners to the captain of the guard: but Paul was suffered to dwell by himself with a soldier that kept him.
    17 And it came to pass, that after three days Paul called the chief of the Jews together: and when they were come together, he said unto them, Men and brethren, though I have committed nothing against the people, or customs of our fathers, yet was I delivered prisoner from Jerusalem into the hands of the Romans.
    18 Who, when they had examined me, would have let me go, because there was no cause of death in me.
    19 But when the Jews spake against it, I was constrained to appeal unto Caesar; not that I had ought to accuse my nation of.
    20 For this cause therefore have I called for you, to see you, and to speak with you: because that for the hope of Israel I am bound with this chain.
    21 And they said unto him, We neither received letters out of Judaea concerning thee, neither any of the brethren that came shewed or spake any harm of thee.
    22 But we desire to hear of thee what thou thinkest: for as concerning this sect, we know that every where it is spoken against.
    23 And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening.
    24 And some believed the things which were spoken, and some believed not.
    25 And when they agreed not among themselves, they departed, after that Paul had spoken one word, Well spake the Holy Ghost by Esaias the prophet unto our fathers,
    26 Saying, Go unto this people, and say, Hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and not perceive:
    27 For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
    28 Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.
    29 And when he had said these words, the Jews departed, and had great reasoning among themselves.


    You might believe the book of Romans was written only to Gentiles, but it was not. Paul first gathered all the Jews in Rome and preached to them. And this is who I believe he is speaking to in Romans 9. And he is explaining to them that they are not saved simply because they are the physical descendents of Abraham. Look how Paul starts the chapter.

    Rom 9:1 I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,
    2 That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.
    3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
    4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
    5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.
    6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
    7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
    8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.


    So you see how Paul explains in verse 7 how that you are not saved because you are the physical seed of Abraham, but rather the children of "promise" are counted as Abraham's seed. These are those who believe and have faith in God's word.

    This is why some objected. They had been raised all their life to believe they were the chosen or "elect" people. They believed they were saved simply because they descended from Abraham. And this is the very topic Paul is discussing in this chapter. It is after Paul explains this and some object that Paul says God will show mercy on whom he will, and wrath on others.

    And right after the verses you pull out of context Paul goes right back to this subject and once again explains that he is contrasting works verses faith.

    Rom 9:30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
    31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
    32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
    33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.


    Look how Paul starts this passage. He says, "What shall we say then?". He is summing up this chapter. And he clearly explains that the Jews who sought after God were rejected because they tried to attain righteousness through the works of the law. He also explains that the Gentiles who had not the law have attained righteousness by believeing in Christ.

    So, you can't pull a few verses out of context and use it to prove your doctrine. Read these verses within the full context of the chapter and you will easily see that God has elected those who come by faith, and rejected those who try to attain righteousness through works.

    And Paul continues this theme in the very next chapter.

    Rom 10:1 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.
    2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
    3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
    4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.


    Carico, you often criticize non-Cals like me, but in my opinion you do not know the scriptures. You cherry-pick verses to prove a doctrine taught by men and ignore scripture that contradicts it.
     
    #3 Winman, Oct 11, 2009
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  4. OldRegular

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    Winman,
    Are my eyes that bad? I don't see anything about faith in the passage you quoted from Romans.
     
  5. Allan

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    See I agree with you at times cause even I don't seen his point in this passage being conveyed.
     
  6. Winman

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    When Romans 9 speaks of being called it is speaking of God calling men to believe.

    Rom 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
    7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
    8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
    9 For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sara shall have a son.
    10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
    11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth; )
    12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
    13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.


    Heb 11:8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.

    Rom 1:7 To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

    2 Thess 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
    14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
     
    #6 Winman, Oct 11, 2009
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  7. Carico

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    Amen. :thumbs: Since none of us deserves heaven, then even if God chose only one person to enter heaven, he is being more than merciful. But he chooses many.
     
    #7 Carico, Oct 11, 2009
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  8. Havensdad

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    O.k., I noticed this verse posted above. let's look at it:


    2 Thess 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth.

    "God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation (O.k., God has chosen these people for salvation: meaning he has chosen NOT to save others.)

    THROUGH sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth. (Notice here that belief and sanctification are put in the same category. They are both the MEANS to accomplish the ENDS of what God wants. They are NOT the determining factor!!)


    Also, someone is massacring Romans 9 above: the verses quoted say nothing about faith being any determining factor. Rather, God's sovereign choice, according to nothing but His own will, seems to be what it is talking about.
     
  9. Winman

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    The whole chapter of Romans 9 is contrasting faith verses works.

    Rom 9:30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
    31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
    32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;


    Here Paul is summarizing the whole chapter. He has just done all this preaching about Jacob and Esau, Moses and Pharaoh. And now he says,

    "What shall we say then?'

    Then he says the Jews who considered themselves the chosen and elect of God have not attained the righteousness of God because they sought it through the works of the law, but the Gentiles who had not the law had attained God's righteousness through faith.

    The entire chapter is speaking of faith verses works. But you are blinded by your pre-conceived ideas on election.

    And 2 Thessalonians 2:13 is showing that you have to believe the truth (along with being sanctified by the Spirit) to be one of the chosen.

    2 Thess 2: 13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

    The word "through" in this verse means "by" primarily. You could say "he hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation BY belief of the truth" and it would not change the meaning of this verse.

    It is the dative case, which means:

    used to indicate the noun to whom something is given

    The noun (actually pronoun) in this verse is "you". What is given? Salvation. And how is it given? By belief in the truth.
     
    #9 Winman, Oct 11, 2009
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  10. Carico

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    And once again, where does faith come from?

    1) The devil
    2) the sinful nature
    3) The Holy Spirit?

    And who decides who receives the Holy Spirit?

    1) the devil
    2) God
    3) The sinful nature of man?

    You have to answer those questions Winman in order to understand God's election. God has chosen Israel as His chosen people.

    And who is Israel? Romans 9:6-9 explains that Israel are not the natural children of Abraham, but the children of the promise who are Abraham's seed. And who are they? Galatians 3:39 explains, "If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed."

    So the true Israel are all those chosen before the creation of the world to receive the Holy Spirit, whether Jew or Gentile. They are God's elect.
     
  11. Winman

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    I answered this. The Bible answers this.

    Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

    You can believe the doctrines of men, but the scriptures say faith comes by hearing God's word.

    Now who has to do the hearing? You do of course. Or do you believe God has to hear his own word for you?
     
  12. Carico

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    Of course one can't believe without first, hearing the word. But once again, atheists have heard the bible for most of their lives and they still don't believe. And it's not because they prefer hell over heaven.

    So put that verse together with Ephesians 2:8-9, "For it is by grace that you have been saved, through faith-and this not from yourselves- it is a gift from God so that no one can boast."

    So I trust you believe that verse that faith is not from ourselves. Once you believe that, you will know that one cannot have faith until he receives the Holy Spirit as 1 Corinthians 2:14 also confirms.
     
    #12 Carico, Oct 11, 2009
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  13. OldRegular

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    Winman

    You start out quoting Romans 9:10-12 but you stopped too soon. You should have included at least verse 13. The passage then reads as follows [NASB]:

    10. And not only this, but there was Rebekah also, when she had conceived twins by one man, our father Isaac;
    11. for though the twins were not yet born, and had not done anything good or bad, in order that God’s purpose according to His choice might stand, not because of works, but because of Him who calls,
    12. it was said to her, “The older will serve the younger.”
    13. Just as it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”


    Perhaps I am incorrect but it appears that GOD, through the Apostle Paul, is stating, not the arbitrariness of election, but that election, HIS choice of some to salvation, was according to HIS purpose. Admittedly verse 13 which you omitted is difficult to comprehend; but then who can comprehend the mind of GOD.

    Now is GOD constrained to explain his actions to mankind? Absolutely not. There is much in the book of Job that I do not understand but one thing stands out clearly to me. After Job finally stops his complaints against and questioning of GOD what does GOD tell Job. NOTHING. HE simply asks: Where were you Job? GOD owes man nothing. However, in this case GOD, through the Apostle Paul, does provide some explanation, using an episode from the history of Israel.

    Consider Verses 14-18 [NASB]:

    14. What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be!
    15. For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom i have compassion.”
    16. So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.
    17. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose i raised you up, to demonstrate my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed throughout the whole earth.”
    18. So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.


    Note particularly verses 15 & 16. GOD through the Apostle Paul is using the history of the release of Israel in bondage in Egypt to make the point that HE alone determines who will receive mercy. Verse 15 tells us that God choses those to whom he will extend mercy, those to whom HIS purpose of salvation is made manifest. Verse 16 tells us that the actions of man are completely irrelevant. Mercy does not depend upon man but only upon GOD.

    Again turning to Romans we read:

    Romans 8:28-30
    28. And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose.
    29. For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the first-born among many brethren;
    30. and whom He predestined, these He also called; and whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.


    There are other Scripture which clearly show the purpose of GOD in the election of some to salvation.

    Ephesians 1:3-7 [NASB]
    3. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ,
    4. just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before Him. In love
    5. He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,
    6. to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved.
    7. In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace,


    2 Timothy 1:8-10 [NASB}
    8. Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, or of me His prisoner; but join with me in suffering for the gospel according to the power of God,
    9. who has saved us, and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity,
    10. but now has been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Christ Jesus, who abolished death, and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel,


    From this sampling of many such Scripture we see the affirmation of the purpose of GOD in Salvation:

    1. It is God the Father who foreknew and chose His people before the foundation of the world [Ephesians 1:4].

    2. It is God the Father who predestined that His people would be conformed to the image of His Son that they might be adopted as His children [Ephesians 1: 5] and become heirs and joint heirs with Jesus Christ [Romans 8: 16, 17].

    3. It is God the Son who humbles Himself, take upon Himself the form of man, Jesus Christ, and sheds His blood on a Roman cross to pay the penalty for the sins of those whom the Father has chosen to salvation [John 17; Philippians 2:6-10].

    4. It is God the Holy Spirit, who applies the work of the Jesus Christ to those chosen by God unto salvation so that none are lost [John 6: 37, 39, 40, 44].

    5. It is the Triune God who, in time, will regenerate, call, justify, and glorify those whom He chose to Salvation before the foundation of the world, therefore, they can never fall away or lose that Salvation [Romans 8:28-30].
     
  14. menageriekeeper

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    Wrong. Of course they do. Or rather they prefer the lie to the truth of God. Let me quote:

    The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness.......For although they knew God, the neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him....and exchanged the glory of God for images....They exchanged the truth of God for a lie and worshipped and served created things rather than the Creator. Romans 1:18-25 NIV


    Notice the bold. They KNEW God. Who are they? All those who refuse to recognize the glory and truth of God. Easy enough.
     
  15. Carico

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    Wrong. The key word is "suppress". Suppression denies in the conscious mind what one knows to be true in the unconscious mind. Thus, an alcoholic truly does not believe that he has a drinking problem since he is consciously denying it.

    You are not only disagreeing with 2 Corinthians 4:4 that Satan is blinding the eyes of unbelievers so they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, you are also claiming that one can choose not to be deceived by Satan. If that were true, then MAN has victory over Satan, not Christ.

    Just ask any atheist if he believes in hell and they'll all say no. They think that God is as imaginary as the Flying spaghetti monster.

    Evolutionists also truly believe that man evolved from apes. that is not a choice. They are being deceived by Satan.

    People who endorse homosexuality truly believe that there's nothing wrong with it. They are being deceived by Satan.

    Neo Nazi's also truly believe that the Jews are subhuman.

    The Germans in Nazi Germany truly believed that Hitler was a savior.

    The Muslims truly believe that allah is God. They are being deceived by Satan.

    The Buddhists truly believe in re-incarnation. They are being deceived by Satan.

    Those are all deceptions from Satan.

    Satan's deceptions are the reason that people have so many different beliefs. It's also the reason for the divisions between Christians as 1 Corinthians 11:19 explains.

    So remember 1 Corinthians 2;14, "The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from God for they are foolishness to him and he cannot understand them because they are spiritually discerned."

    Thus, as Jesus tells us in MT. 24, only the elect won't be deceived because the elect have the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of truth.

    So nothing about your interpretation is right or biblical.
     
    #15 Carico, Oct 11, 2009
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  16. The Archangel

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    Unfortunately, your Greek is lacking. What you are missing, is the preposition ἐν. Now, it is true the word for sanctification is in the dative form, but when the preposition ἐν appears with the dative sanctification those words are linked--the preposition governs the noun.

    The entire sentence is "God chose you ​as the firstfruits​ ​to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth" and it is diagrammed this way:

    God (Subject) chose (aorist active indicative--simple past)
    1. you all (2nd person plural) as the first fruits
    2. into salvation (εἰς with the accusative "Salvation")
    through sanctification (ἐν plus the dative)
    1. of the Holy Spirit
    and
    2. belief in/of the truth
    Now, the sentence has a subject and it is not, as you state, the pronoun "you." The subject is God. The verb is (he) chose.

    So according to this verse, who chose? God.

    What or whom did he choose? You all (the Christians to whom Paul is writing).

    What did God choose them into? Salvation.

    How did He do it? Through the work (sanctification) of the Holy Spirit and belief in the truth.

    So, who is the main actor? God. Who is it that does the action? God. Who is it that does the choosing? God. Who is it that does the sanctifying? God.

    You are simply incorrect in your interpretation because you divorce the pronoun ἐν from its context and try to turn it into "by." You try to apply that "by" to the phrase "belief in truth." The great error here is that, because of the governing position of the preposition, both "sanctification of the Holy Spirit" and "belief in truth" are governed by it.

    Since the proposition governs both and both dative nouns are linked by the conjunction κάι it is impossible to skip the sanctifying work of the Holy Spirit which is so clearly illustrated and which clearly is something we do not do ourselves.

    Furthermore, you would have us believe that the subject and verb are relating to human action, which they clearly is not. Therefore, your interpretation is simply wrong and is, as you have accused other, a product of your presuppositions, not the text.

    Blessings,

    The Archangel
     
  17. Carico

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    Psalm 147:18, "He has revealed his word to Jacob, his laws and decrees to Israel. He has done this for no other nation; they do not know his laws."

    MT 11;25-27, "I praise you good Father, Lord of heaven and earth for having hidden these things from the wise and learned and revealing them to little children. For that was your good pleasure."
     
  18. Havensdad

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    Actually, the Bible says God assigns faith.

    Rom 12:3 For by the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think with sober judgment, each according to the measure of faith that God has assigned.
     
  19. Havensdad

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    No, it is not about that at all. It is about the sovereign election of God. Esau and Jacob were chosen, not on the basis of ANYTHING to do with them: God just chose to love one, and not the other.

    If faith/belief was something they did or chose, this scripture would be directly refuted.

    You are adding "They chose" before the word "faith". The did not seek it by faith, because faith was not given to them. The scriptures just said that people were not chosen based on anything they did: including choosing to have faith.

    That pretty much blows your whole presupposition out of the water.

    A faith that God had given them, because he had chosen them while they were " not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad". "good" includes having faith. God's basis of choosing them, which is given here, specifically excludes any foreseen faith.

    No it is not. But you are blinded by your own love of humanity, and a desire to be the captain of your own destiny.

    Funny, seeing as how I went the first nine years of my Christian life as a Calvie hating 4 point Arminian: this chapter (without any outside help) is the scriptures which God used to show me I was a prideful idiot, who had been arguing out of a sense of a human understanding of "fairness": not according to his scriptures. I locked myself in a room for several days and studied it: are you brave enough to do the same?

    Actually, it would. The word "en" in the dative case here, shows what is known as instrumentality, not reason or cause. You are making the "by" mean something it doesn't. Let me demonstrate.

    Here is "instrumentality" (the way it is used above): "He loved his daughter, so he fixed here car with the wrench." (This could also be rendered "BY" the wrench, although this is a clunky translation in English). Notice the "wrench" is just the "instrument" used to accomplish what other things have determined (his love) is the goal (fixing the car). The wrench does not determine anything: it is just a means to an end.

    YOU are trying to make it deterministic or causal, which it is not, and cannot be in this sentence structure.
     
  20. zrs6v4

    zrs6v4
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    Yes, I love God's election.. I cant get enough of it... It seems you are contrasting how to view it at the end of your statement.

    1. Mans view of the lost

    vs

    2. God's view of the lost

    Mans viewpoint opens the doors to everyone who trusts in the Lord and God's viewpoint has a specific perfect purpose in whom those are He will impart life to through to the living and abiding word of God..

    1 Peter 1:23
     

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