God's hardening vs. total depravity

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by npetreley, Feb 26, 2006.

  1. npetreley

    npetreley
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2002
    Messages:
    7,359
    Likes Received:
    0
    Some have made the claim that man has the ability to respond to the Gospel without first being regenerated by the Holy Spirit. For this reason, when God decides that someone should not be saved, God must harden that man's heart in order to block man's ability to respond to the Gospel.

    The point of the above reasoning is to disprove total depravity. The reasoning goes this way: If total depravity were true, then God would not need to harden hearts in order to block this innate ability of man to respond to the Gospel.

    This argument places a free willer in a very awkward position.

    1. It contradicts other scripture.

    Jesus says, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him."

    The above reasoning would require Jesus to have said, "All men can come to me unless the Father disables him."

    2. It contradicts the free will interpretation of other scriptures.

    Free willers argue that "God is not willing that any [person, ever] should not perish".

    But the consequence of the above reasoning is that God is not only willing that some perish, He has to take affirmative action to make darn sure they perish. After all, if God doesn't harden their hearts, they might use their innate ability to choose salvation of their own free will without the regeneration of the Holy Spirit.

    Obviously, anyone who argues that hardening disproves total depravity is going to have to reconcile that view with contradictory scriptures such as John 6:65, and give up their interpretation of passages such as John 3:16 and 2 Peter 3:9 altogether. You can't say in one breath that God is not willing that any person ever should perish, and in the next breath say that God must take action to make sure some people perish in order to counteract their innate ability to avoid that fate.
     
  2. Timtoolman

    Timtoolman
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2004
    Messages:
    1,403
    Likes Received:
    0
    LOL, actually you have made a great case for free will and contradict yourself.
    You have brought up the same questions I did. IF man is totally unable, unwilling from birth and only if God enables him, then why God even HAVE to harden hearst if they already cannot respond from birth.
    There is no contradict in the non calvnist belief that the Fahter draws all but only those that believe will be saved or accept the drawing.

    Tim
     
  3. Joseph_Botwinick

    Joseph_Botwinick
    Expand Collapse
    <img src=/532.jpg>Banned

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2000
    Messages:
    17,527
    Likes Received:
    0
    Romans 9:14-21
     
  4. standingfirminChrist

    standingfirminChrist
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2005
    Messages:
    9,454
    Likes Received:
    0
    See, there is the problem with many translations. They err when it comes to translating the greek.

    the word 'given, in John 6:65 is not translated as 'enable' as npetrely has posted. What it is translated as is this:

    a prolonged form of a primary verb (which is used as an alternative in most of the tenses); to give (used in a very wide application, properly, or by implication, literally or figuratively; greatly modified by the connection):--adventure, bestow, bring forth, commit, deliver (up), give, grant, hinder, make, minister, number, offer, have power, put, receive, set, shew, smite (+ with the hand), strike (+ with the palm of the hand), suffer, take, utter, yield.

    One of the translations means offer. God has already offered Salvation to all in John 3:16, Romans 10:13, and many other verses throughout the New Testament.
     
  5. npetreley

    npetreley
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2002
    Messages:
    7,359
    Likes Received:
    0
    Why, indeed?

    You assume that God harden's man's heart because otherwise man would be able to be saved. I do not agree, but I have accepted your assumption for the sake of argument.

    Given that your interpretation is correct, it causes contradictions with other scripture and negates the common interpretation of "God is not willing that any should perish".

    I see you have conveniently failed to even address those points.
     
  6. npetreley

    npetreley
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2002
    Messages:
    7,359
    Likes Received:
    0
    If you believe that God must harden the heart of a person in order to block his innate ability to accept the Gospel of his own free will, then you contradict John 3:16. Salvation is not open to all, and God sees to it that it is unavailable to some by hardening their hearts. That is YOUR reasoning, not mine. You introduce a contradiction and then fail to address it.
     
  7. Timtoolman

    Timtoolman
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2004
    Messages:
    1,403
    Likes Received:
    0
    Why, indeed?

    You assume that God harden's man's heart because otherwise man would be able to be saved. I do not agree, but I have accepted your assumption for the sake of argument.

    Given that your interpretation is correct, it causes contradictions with other scripture and negates the common interpretation of "God is not willing that any should perish".

    I see you have conveniently failed to even address those points.
    </font>[/QUOTE]npet, I will give you the benefit of the doubt since you seem to be new. I have answered that in ealier threads. It is simpley this.
    Even as it is today the word of God does one of two things. It is recieved or rejected. It either cultavates or softens the heart or it hardens it. Any man, and I have wittnesses this over and over in my lifetime, who sits under the gospel has to make a choice. I have seen white knuckles hanging onto a pew not to respond. Untill they have set under the word of God and rejectected the word and HS so long that their hearts become harden. And Harder it becomes as the sit under the gospel.
     
  8. Joseph_Botwinick

    Joseph_Botwinick
    Expand Collapse
    <img src=/532.jpg>Banned

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2000
    Messages:
    17,527
    Likes Received:
    0
    Tim,

    According to the Bible, who hardened Pharoah's heart and why?

    Joseph Botwinick
     
  9. standingfirminChrist

    standingfirminChrist
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2005
    Messages:
    9,454
    Likes Received:
    0
    God hardened Pharaoh's heart in some instances, but Pharaoh also hardened his own heart in Exodus 8...

    Exodus 8:15 But when Pharaoh saw that there was respite, he hardened his heart, and hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had said.

    Exodus 8:32 And Pharaoh hardened his heart at this time also, neither would he let the people go.

    Exodus 9:34 And when Pharaoh saw that the rain and the hail and the thunders were ceased, he sinned yet more, and hardened his heart, he and his servants.

    1 Samuel 6:6 Wherefore then do ye harden your hearts, as the Egyptians and Pharaoh hardened their hearts? when he had wrought wonderfully among them, did they not let the people go, and they departed?

    One more instance where the heart was hardened, but not by God....

    2 Chronicles 36:13 And he also rebelled against king Nebuchadnezzar, who had made him swear by God: but he stiffened his neck, and hardened his heart from turning unto the LORD God of Israel.
     
  10. Joseph_Botwinick

    Joseph_Botwinick
    Expand Collapse
    <img src=/532.jpg>Banned

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2000
    Messages:
    17,527
    Likes Received:
    0
    SFIC,

    According to the Word of God, for what purpose did God harden pharaoh's heart?


    Romans 9:14-21 </font>[/QUOTE]
     
  11. npetreley

    npetreley
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2002
    Messages:
    7,359
    Likes Received:
    0
    You continue to avoid explaining how your view does not contradict the free will interpretations of 2 Peter 3:9. REGARDLESS OF THE REASON (whether or not man hardened his own heart first), if God must harden a man's heart in order to block his innate ability to respond to the Gospel, then God is certainly willing that some should perish, and -- according to YOU, not me -- takes action to make sure they perish. Therefore, according to your premise, 2 Peter 3:9 cannot possibly mean that God is not willing that ANY (anyone who lived, lives or will live) perish.

    Obviously you are unable to reconcile your view with 2 Peter 3:9 because you are doing everything possible to avoid the issue with each post.
     
  12. Scott J

    Scott J
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2001
    Messages:
    8,462
    Likes Received:
    0
    Perhaps I missed Tim's scriptural proof of this idea that God hardens individuals so that they cannot believe unto salvation. The only possible qualifying scripture in the NT I know of demonstrates in context that it was a general hardening of the Jews so that they would refuse the Messiah's kingdom. The passage clearly declares that there were some that believed.... so "they" cannot possibly refer to all of them.

    Tim, If you have tried to prove this somewhere then a link would be more than sufficient for an answer.
     
  13. Brother James

    Brother James
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2005
    Messages:
    660
    Likes Received:
    0
    This argument will never end will it? One thing a man can't stand is the idea of a Sovereign God who does all things according to his will and good pleasure without asking the mans opinion on the matter.
     
  14. Brother James

    Brother James
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2005
    Messages:
    660
    Likes Received:
    0
    How different is the God of the Bible from the God of modern Christendom! The conception of Deity which prevails most widely today, even among those who profess to give heed to the Scriptures, is a miserable caricature, a blasphemous travesty of the Truth. The God of the twentieth century is a helpless, effeminate being who commands the respect of no really thoughtful man. The God of the popular mind is the creation of a maudlin sentimentality. The God of many a present-day pulpit is an object of pity rather than of awe-inspiring reverence.[1] To say that God the Father has purposed the salvation of all mankind, that God the Son died with the express intention of saving the whole human race, and that God the Holy Spirit is now seeking to win the world to Christ; when, as a matter of common observation, it is apparent that the great majority of our fellow-men are dying in sin, and passing into a hopeless eternity: is to say that God the Father is disappointed, that God the Son is dissatisfied, and that God the Holy Spirit is defeated. We have stated the issue baldly, but there is no escaping the conclusion. To argue that God is "trying His best" to save all mankind, but that the majority of men will not let Him save them, is to insist that the will of the Creator is impotent, and that the will of the creature is omnipotent. To throw the blame, as many do, upon the Devil, does not remove the difficulty, for if Satan is defeating the purpose of God, then, Satan is Almighty and God is no longer the Supreme Being.

    A.W. PINK
     
  15. av1611jim

    av1611jim
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Aug 22, 2002
    Messages:
    3,511
    Likes Received:
    0
    And another thing a man cannot stand is the idea that he is responsible for, and will be held accountable for, his OWN choices. :D ;) [​IMG]
     
  16. npetreley

    npetreley
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2002
    Messages:
    7,359
    Likes Received:
    0
    I, for one, love the idea. I can't imagine why God would choose me, but then if He hadn't, I'm sure it wouldn't matter to me. I would still hate Him the way I did before, and wouldn't care. But now the knowledge that God is sovereign over my will is a supreme comfort.

    I know there is no scripture that states that the reason God hardens the heart of some is to place them in the state of total depravity so that they cannot choose Him.

    But I was challenging that notion by requiring those who believe it to explain how they can ALSO believe that God is not willing that ANY (all-inclusive) should perish. The two views are contradictory, and nobody wants to even address it, let alone explain it. Obviously it is impossible to reconcile these two views, so I'm assuming they just want to ignore the contradiction and pretend it doesn't exist.
     
  17. Brother James

    Brother James
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2005
    Messages:
    660
    Likes Received:
    0
    What Calvinist doesn't believe that?
     
  18. Brother James

    Brother James
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2005
    Messages:
    660
    Likes Received:
    0
    Chapter 3: Of God's Decree
    1689 CONFESSION

    1. God hath decreed in himself, from all eternity, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably, all things, whatsoever comes to pass; yet so as thereby is God neither the author of sin nor hath fellowship with any therein; nor is violence offered to the will of the creature, nor yet is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established; in which appears his wisdom in disposing all things, and power and faithfulness in accomplishing his decree.
    ( Isaiah 46:10; Ephesians 1:11; Hebrews 6:17; Romans 9:15, 18; James 1:13; 1 John 1:5; Acts 4:27, 28; John 19:11; Numbers 23:19; Ephesians 1:3-5 )

    2. Although God knoweth whatsoever may or can come to pass, upon all supposed conditions, yet hath he not decreed anything, because he foresaw it as future, or as that which would come to pass upon such conditions.
    ( Acts 15:18; Romans 9:11, 13, 16, 18 )

    3. By the decree of God, for the manifestation of his glory, some men and angels are predestinated, or foreordained to eternal life through Jesus Christ, to the praise of his glorious grace; others being left to act in their sin to their just condemnation, to the praise of his glorious justice.
    ( 1 Timothy 5:21; Matthew 25:34; Ephesians 1:5, 6; Romans 9:22, 23; Jude 4 )

    4. These angels and men thus predestinated and foreordained, are particularly and unchangeably designed, and their number so certain and definite, that it cannot be either increased or diminished.
    ( 2 Timothy 2:19; John 13:18 )

    5. Those of mankind that are predestinated to life, God, before the foundation of the world was laid, according to his eternal and immutable purpose, and the secret counsel and good pleasure of his will, hath chosen in Christ unto everlasting glory, out of his mere free grace and love, without any other thing in the creature as a condition or cause moving him thereunto.
    ( Ephesians 1:4, 9, 11; Romans 8:30; 2 Timothy 1:9; 1 Thessalonians 5:9; Romans 9:13, 16; Ephesians 2:5, 12 )
     
  19. Timtoolman

    Timtoolman
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2004
    Messages:
    1,403
    Likes Received:
    0
    What Calvinist doesn't believe that? </font>[/QUOTE]This in the thinking that I have expected to come from calvinist. Here we are arguing, non-calvinist- that it it man's choice that sends him to hell, not God's. WE are in fact argueing that WE ARE RESPONSABLE.
     
  20. Timtoolman

    Timtoolman
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2004
    Messages:
    1,403
    Likes Received:
    0
    I, for one, love the idea. I can't imagine why God would choose me, but then if He hadn't, I'm sure it wouldn't matter to me. I would still hate Him the way I did before, and wouldn't care. But now the knowledge that God is sovereign over my will is a supreme comfort.

    I know there is no scripture that states that the reason God hardens the heart of some is to place them in the state of total depravity so that they cannot choose Him.

    But I was challenging that notion by requiring those who believe it to explain how they can ALSO believe that God is not willing that ANY (all-inclusive) should perish. The two views are contradictory, and nobody wants to even address it, let alone explain it. Obviously it is impossible to reconcile these two views, so I'm assuming they just want to ignore the contradiction and pretend it doesn't exist.
    </font>[/QUOTE]False arguement number 2. Actually it is the non-calvinist who believes in the sovereignty of God. As Scriptures pts out the sovereignty of God says choose this day whom you will serve, choose life or death, choose eternal life or believe not and choose eternal damnation. Now the calvinist says, nope that cannot be. God, you cannot declare yourself sovereign if you give man choice.
     

Share This Page

Loading...