God's Hatred Toward Sinners

Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by Mark Osgatharp, Feb 23, 2003.

  1. Mark Osgatharp

    Mark Osgatharp
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    All attempts to discard or soften the doctrine of eternal torment have their roots in the idea that God loves everyone. In reality, the Scriptures make it perfectly clear that God categorically hates sinners.

    The only respect in which it can be said that God "loves" the unjust is that He blesses them with temporal blessings and that He made a way for them to be made redeemed through the sacrifice of Christ. But for those who finally reject these gracious overtures, the Lord will withdraw all mercy and love and the only thing left will be His unmitigated hatred towards them.

    God's destruction of the wicked is not passive. He is out to destroy the wicked with a miserable destruction and will most certainly succeed. How anyone can read the Scriptures and fail to see this point I do not comprehend. It is found at every turn.

    One of the most explicit statements of God's hatred is found in Hosea:

    "Give them, O Lord; what wilt thou give? give them a miscarrying womb and dry breasts. All their wickedness is in Gilgal: for there I hated them: for the wickedness of their doings I will drive them out of my house, I will love them no more."

    What a terrifying thougt! Totally abandoned by God! This is what David described when he prophesied of Judas and his kind:

    "Let their table become a snare before them: and that which should have been for their welfare, let it become a trap.

    Let their eyes be darkened, that they see not; and make their loins continually to shake.

    Pour out thine indignation upon them, and let thy wrathful anger take hold of them.

    Let their habitation be desolate; and let none dwell therein.

    For they persecute him whom thou hast smitten; and they talk to the grief of those whom thou hast wounded.

    Add iniquity unto their iniquity; and let them not come into thy righteousness.

    Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous."

    It was said in another thread:

    "God could make us 'happy' whilst our loved ones suffered in hell only in two possible ways: either by concealing from us the magnitude of the tragedy (blissful ignorance), or by giving us a callous and stony heart, so that we no longer truly loved those who were lost. Both of these possibilities, however, are incompatible with true blessedness. So in the end, it is logically impossible for God to bring blessedness to one person without also bringing it to all."

    Tell me, how does this vile philsophy compare with what the Scriptures actually teach? Where is it written that we must love the wicked to find blessedness with God?

    The very words of Christ, given first to Isaiah and called to remembrance when Christ walked on earth tell another tale. Hear the word of the Lord!

    "And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenced; and they shall be an abhoring to all flesh."

    God is in His holy temple. Let all the earth keep silence before Him!

    Mark Osgatharp
     
  2. Hardsheller

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    Insightful post. [​IMG]
     
  3. Dr. Bob

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    Right on, Mark. The "politically correct" police on the BB may opt to disagree with the typical cop-out God hates the sin but loves the sinner.

    Time to preach the Word without compromise or pc newspeak. I am just extremely grateful that God opted to love me. Imagine that!

    Dr. Bob
    "He knew these two things: He was a great sinner and he had a great Savior." (epitaph of John Newton)
     
  4. I Am Blessed 24

    I Am Blessed 24
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    I have to disagree with this one Mark. Christ DIED for sinners. Why would God send His only Son to die for us if he hated us??? We are ALL sinners saved by grace and God loves "whosoever". If any man says he has not sinned, he is a liar and there is no truth in him. Does God hate EVERYONE???

    And Dr.Bob; I won't even mention "Love the sinner, hate the sin". Cause I sure don't want to be labeled 'Politically Correct'... :rolleyes:

    As far as God making us happy while our loved ones burn in hell.....We may cry when we see loved ones and friends being thrown into the lake of fire that we had a chance to witness to and did not.....but then...

    "He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord God will wipe away tears from all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from all the earth; for the Lord hath spoken it."
    Isaiah 25:8

    JMHO
    Sue
     
  5. Dr. Bob

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    Sue, kudos on making 1000 posts. Just noticed!

    Christ died for sinners, but for the sinners He loved and had been chosen by the Father for His Bride. Died for every one of them. Took away their sins/punishment (mercy) and gave them heaven (grace).

    Christ did NOT die in the place of one sinner who was not so chosen. If so, His blood would have cleansed that sin, too. (Remember, it's not up to us to apply the blood; it's up to God)

    Hence Mark is on target with this and you have slipped into a pelagian/arminian mindset.
     
  6. rlvaughn

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    That one belongs in the same wastebasket with the old bromide "God will not send anyone to Hell." Read Matthew 25: "Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:" It shows God will send some to Hell.

    [editing this for clarification. I don't want anyone to think I want to throw away something God has said]

    [ February 23, 2003, 10:44 PM: Message edited by: rlvaughn ]
     
  7. I Am Blessed 24

    I Am Blessed 24
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    Thank you for the kudos, Dr. Bob!

    Now, could you please explain that last sentence. If I have slipped, I prefer to know what I have slipped (or stepped) into, as the case may be... [​IMG]

    rl How can you throw anything God said in the Bible into the wastebasket even if you don't agree with it?

    God said it....that settles it; whether you believe it or not...

    [​IMG]
    Sue
     
  8. Pennsylvania Jim

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    But, Sue, what do you do with all the scriptures that Mark has cited to make his case?
     
  9. Mark Osgatharp

    Mark Osgatharp
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    SUE,

    The reason God gave Christ to die for the world is because He is a merciful God who was willing to save people that He hated. That is to say, God demonstrated love or acted in love toward men who were abhorent to Him.

    God continues to love the wicked in that He sustains their physical life and offers them salvation as long as they live. That is not the same love that He has toward His children which is an everlasting love.

    The fact is, God despises the wicked and when a wicked man dies in impenitence and unbelief, there will be no love left for him - only pure, undiluted hatred from God and God's people.

    "The wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth. On the wicked he will rain snares, fire and brimstone and an horrible tempest; this shall be the portion of their cup." Psalm 11

    "Thou hatest all workers of iniquity." Psalm 5

    We cannot simply ignore such passages.

    BOB,

    Apparently you think I'm approaching this from a Calvinist perspective, which I am not. I believe that God both hates and loves the whole human race - all men without exception - at least all those who are yet living.

    He hates the whole human race in that He despises, abhors, and loaths us considered as sinners. And since an unbeliever is nothing but a sinner He has no acceptance with God.

    Those who have been born again have a pure soul and therefore are made worthy to be accepted by God. But God does not accept us as sinners - He accepts us as saints through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit.

    And yet it can be said that God loves the whole human race - at least those who are living - in that He gives all live and breath and sustanance as well as making a genunine offer of salvation to all through the sacrifice of Christ.

    But, again, this does not mean He accepts all. Those who die in their unbelief will fall under that awful curse found in Hosea,

    "I will love them no more."

    For such there is nothing left but mere hatred from God and God's people. These are they who will be cast into a lake of fire to be tormented day and night forever and ever.

    Mark Osgatharp
     
  10. Mark Osgatharp

    Mark Osgatharp
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    SUE,

    And one more thing - you said,

    "As far as God making us happy while our loved ones burn in hell.....We may cry when we see loved ones and friends being thrown into the lake of fire that we had a chance to witness to and did not.....but then..."

    How does that square up with the 58th Psalm? It says,

    "The righteous will rejoice when he sees the vengeance; he will wash his feet in the blood of the wicked."

    That sounds to me like God's people will shout "Amen" when God executes His fierce wrath on the impenitent.

    Mark Osgatharp
     
  11. I Am Blessed 24

    I Am Blessed 24
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    JIM; I would probably chalk that up to people interpreting verses differently.

    MARK; Oops! I did not realize you were talking about God hating DEAD sinners. [​IMG]

    Sue
     
  12. Mark Osgatharp

    Mark Osgatharp
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    SUE,

    I am not talking strictly about God hating dead sinners. I believe God hates all sinners. But I believe that God also loves - that is to say acts in love - toward those whom He hates as long as they are living. When they are dead all acts of love toward them cease and so they are left with pure hatred.

    When a man is saved, he is no longer seen as a sinner in God's sight because he has a 100% sinless soul. We still sin in the flesh and God still hates our flesh. But our flesh is no longer the real "us" because we are a new creatures in Christ Jesus. As Paul said,

    "It is no longer I that do it but sin that dwelleth in me."

    And again,

    "Ye are dead and your life is hid with Christ in God."

    I hope that clarifies what I am trying to say.

    Mark Osgatharp
     
  13. rlvaughn

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    Sue, what God has said is settled - certainly, without doubt, without question!!! But what I said ought to be thrown in the wastebasket is something people say that God said, but God did not say it. The thing that PEOPLE say is "God will not send anyone to Hell." What THE BIBLE says that GOD says is that He will say to some people, "Depart from me into everlasting fire." Sounds like He is sending someone to Hell to me (or probably more technically the lake of fire).

    Sue, I also edited the other post. Hope it's explained better now. I can't stand to have anyone think I would throw away something God said.
     
  14. Mark Osgatharp

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    Brother Vaughn,

    Amen! "The wicked will be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God."

    And, "Thou shalt be thrust down to hell."

    And neither God nor the saints will be crying when it happens.

    Mark Osgatharp
     
  15. I Am Blessed 24

    I Am Blessed 24
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    rj I see what you are saying; but I still think people send themselves to the lake of fire when they refuse Jesus Christ as their personal savior. God may ultimately do that; but it is their will, not His.

    Mark There will be tears or God would not have to wipe them from our eyes.

    IMHO
    Sue
     
  16. rlvaughn

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    Sue, I understand where you're coming from with that statement, but ultimately it doesn't matter whether one agrees with Calvinism or rejects it (in relation to this statement about God sending people to Hell). Yes, there will be the differences on the details. But it is the WILL OF GOD to cast Christ-rejecting sinners into Hell.

    [ February 23, 2003, 11:14 PM: Message edited by: rlvaughn ]
     
  17. Doubting Thomas

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    Mark,
    Interesting perspective...and the Biblically correct one, I might add. On one hand are those who stress God's universal love for everyone while ignoring the passages describing His abhorence for the wicked and His impending wrath on the impenitent. On the other hand, we have some hyper-Calvinists denying the God can have any kind of love for the non-"elect", those He has chosen to damn to hell from all eternity. I do want to add, that at least while we are on this earth we are to love our enemies, which presumably includes some lost folks. [​IMG]
    Peace.
     
  18. Artimaeus

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    Where to begin...
    John 3:16 says "For God so loved the world..." says, He loves ALL
    Hosea says, "...for there I hated them: for the wickedness of their doings I will drive them out of my house, I will love them no more." says He hates SOME of them.
    An obvious contradtiction, let's just throw the whole thing out.
    Please read things in context and understand that there are no contradictions. If you think there are then, you are misunderstanding something, somewhere. Try to find out how you are misunderstanding it. In Hosea for example, who is the "I" in I will hate them? It is Hosea and not the Lord.

    Luke 14:26 If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.
    Taken out of context this says you MUST HATE your family or you cannot be a disciple. Do not "wrest" the scriptures. You cannot interpret a verse without taking into account other verses.

    Ezek 33:11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live:

    This is Gpod's attitude toward sinners. He doesn't hate in the sense of wanting bad things for them, He hates in the sense of being disturbed by what they do and how they are.

    Dr. Bob, concerning Jesus' atoning blood: he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. and you can quote me on that.
    Acts 17:30 God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent,

    Pennsylvania Jim; What I would do with all of the scripture that Mark has cited is reread them again and look to see if it is saying that God hates people. I think you will find that it is not saying that. God does indeed hate wickedness and will not ultimately tolerate it, there will be ramifications to sin, a reckoning, a time of vengance, judgement

    Mark, God told us to love our enemies, would He do less? There is a hell and it will be utilized for the devil, his angels, and sinners who fail to accept his gracious gift, but that does not by any stretch of the imagination men that God has "unmitigated hatred for sinners" or that God "categorically hates sinners". Justice will be done, vengance will be taken, evil is evil and God hates it. He is Love and not the opposite hate. He is Justice and not the opposite unfair. He is Merciful and not the opposite mean. He does not hate people, He hates what they are, sinners, evildoers, murderers, liars, thieves, gossips, etc. He is not willing that any should persish but that all should come to repentance. People will go to hell but, not because he hates them but because they reject His love.
     
  19. Mark Osgatharp

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    Artimaeus,

    I totally agree that we should love sinners in the same respect that the Lord does - treating them with love. That does not mean approving of them in their sin, anymore than God approves of us in our sin.

    I also agree that God prefers that the wicked turn from their wickedness and live - so much so that He offered Christ as a sacrifice to make it possible.

    None of this negates the categorical statments that,

    "Thou hatest all workers of inquity. Thou shalt destroy them that speak leasing [deceit]. Thou wilt abhor the bloody and deceitful man" Psalm 5.

    And, "The wicked, and him that loveth violence, his soul hateth. Upon the wicked he shall rain snares, fire and brimstone, and an horrible temptest; this shall be the portion of their cup" Psalm 11:5.

    Tell me, Arty, where is the love in that? These Psalms speak in explicit terms as to the fact that God will destroy the wicked. When He does that there will be no love left, as He said in Hosea,

    "I will love them nor more."

    And it was the Lord, not Hosea, who said that. And even if it were Hosea, are you suggesting that Hosea didn't know what he was talking about? Remember,

    "Holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost."

    Mark Osgatharp
     
  20. Artimaeus

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    Mark, I couldn't agree more, God loves sinners. (the person)
    Mark, I couldn't agree more, God hates sinners. (the wicked part)

    I can't believe I am saying this, but I stand by what I said AND I can also see your point. God loves EVERY single human being that has ever existed. Agape love requires it. God is also righteous, Good, and Just. and will destroy evil and evil doers. I think it is the shade and the coloring of the connotation for the word "hate" that is causing the peoblem. God hates everything about a sinner and there is nothing good in them (us). God cannot love AND hate us at the same time if their definitions are opposite but he can if the definitions are merely different and both can apply. (People tell me I am TOO reasonable but I like to think that I am merely trying to look at things from the other persons side)

    Hosea is definitely speaking, it is a prayer addressed to God in Hiosea 9:14. Your Psalms references, however, are quite powerful and make the point very well. I must modify my thinking to comply with the clear teaching of God's Word. Thank You.
     

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