God's Lament vs Calvinism's gospel saboteur

Discussion in 'Calvinism/Arminianism Debate' started by BobRyan, Dec 13, 2013.

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  1. BobRyan

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    [FONT=&quot]God's Lament
    [/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]Hosea 11[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]:7 So My people are bent on turning from Me.[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]Though they call them to the One on high,[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]None at all exalts Him.[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]8 How can I give you up, O Ephraim?[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]How can I surrender you, O Israel?[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]How can I make you like Admah?[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]How can I treat you like Zeboiim?[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]My heart is turned over within Me,[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]All My compassions are kindled[/FONT][FONT=&quot].[/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]
    [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]Ezek 18[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
    30“Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, each according to his conduct,” declares the Lord GOD. “Repent and turn away from all your transgressions, so that iniquity may not become a stumbling block to you. [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]31“Cast away from you all your transgressions which you have committed and make yourselves a new heart and a new spirit! For why will you die, O house of Israel? [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]32“For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone who dies,” declares the Lord GOD. “Therefore, repent and LIVE!" [/FONT]

    "He came to HIS OWN and HIS OWN received Him not" John 1

    [FONT=&quot]2Cor 5
    18 Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation,
    19 namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the WORLD to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.
    20 Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.[/FONT]



    [FONT=&quot]Calvinism's cause/reason for the Lament:[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]
    [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]Calvinism responds to God’s Lament “Why will you die” with an extreme form of ‘inference” that it pours into Deut 5:59. Instead of the obvious cause[/FONT]à[FONT=&quot] effect. Israel chooses faithfulness to God – and God responds with blessing and protection. Calvinism “infers” that it is GOD who is causing Israel to sabotage his plans for them.[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]
    Now Deut 5:29 -- 29 O that there were such an heart in them, that they would fear me, and keep all my commandments always, that it might be well with them, and with their children for ever!.

    In reality we all know God's lament is not about "himself" being saboteur of his own plans, or about Himself forgetting to provide the necessary means. Nobody can doubt that. But here Calvinism has the ultimate doctrine-by-inference to refute the common sense reading of the texts.

    [/FONT]
    By contrast: God's "Appeal" and Lament

    [FONT=&quot]
    [/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]Ezek 18[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]30“Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, each according to his conduct,” declares the Lord GOD. “Repent and turn away from all your transgressions, so that iniquity may not become a stumbling block to you. [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]31“Cast away from you all your transgressions which you have committed and make yourselves a new heart and a new spirit! For why will you die, O house of Israel? [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]32“For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone who dies,” declares the Lord GOD. “Therefore, repent and LIVE!" [/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]2Cor 5: [/FONT][FONT=&quot]20 Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.[/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]2 Peter 3[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]8 But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day.
    9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not willing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

    [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]“He CAME to HIS OWN and [/FONT][FONT=&quot]His OWN received Him not[/FONT][FONT=&quot]” John 1[/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]Matt 23[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]37“Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]38“Behold, your house is being left to you desolate![/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]Luke 7[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]28 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]When all the people and the tax collectors heard this, they acknowledged God’s justice, having been baptized with the baptism of John. [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]29 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]But the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected God’s purpose for themselves, not having been baptized by John.[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]
    [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]Is 5:4[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
    What could have been done more to my vineyard, that I have not done in it? wherefore, when I looked that it should bring forth grapes, brought it forth wild grapes?[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
    [/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]Response: [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] Well the Calvinist would have an answer for God on that one. An answer contrived via “extreme inference” in places like Deut 5:29. Calvinism would inform the world – and God Himself of just what God did to cause the lamentable result that God is complaining about. If the result is wrong then Calvinism argues He did wrong - sabotaging His own plans or at the very least - being forgetful to "do the necessary" as the saying goes in India.[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
    [/FONT]


    [FONT=&quot]The elephant in Calvinism’s living room is that they make God the saboteur of His own Gospel plans for life and salvation – the cause of His own lament
    [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]– like a house wife with a broom lamenting as she stares at a pile of dirt that is not swept clean, crying out “what more could I have done!! Why are you still just sitting there unswept??”.[/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]It appears to those watching Calvinism making such claims - that it is all counter intuitive - counter to the Word of God and based solely on incorrect "inferences" inserted into a text here or there.[/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]in Christ,[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]Bob
    [/FONT]
     
    #1 BobRyan, Dec 13, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 13, 2013
  2. JohnDeereFan

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    Almost as ignorant as the Steve Gaines sermon I heard on The Dividing Line yesterday.
     
  3. pinoybaptist

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    ........:laugh:......... :BangHead:
     
  4. convicted1

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    Look at those verses very closely. God is dealing with His people, and not the world indiscrimently. We, His chosen from all over the world, sin. When we do so, it grieves God. In fact, He sends a rod of correction our way so that we get back in line. That is what those verses are dealing with. God chastens those that He loves, like a dad whips his children. Not out of hatred or spite, but love. By doing so, we learn not to do that again. And if/when we do, we get another dose of the same thing.
     
  5. pinoybaptist

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    and I'd like to add, since Bob Ryan is SDA, that all those commandments and laws, whether moral, social, or whatnot, were given to ISRAEL and ONLY to Israel.

    Nothing is written, or said, of God telling Moses, or Joshua, or Aaron, or the prophets, afterward, to spread these commandments to the heathen, those who are not OF GOD'S PEOPLE.

    The principle is clear.
    God's people, and only they, are covered by the commandments, and the consequences of sin, HERE ON EARTH, in disobeying them.
    He deals ONLY WITH HIS OWN.
    And His own are those He called His Saints from the very beginning.

    It is folly to use the Scripture to argue in behalf of ALL MANKIND.
     
  6. Revmitchell

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    I want to thank you for your reasoned and kind post. Even if I disagree with them.
     
  7. convicted1

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    Thank you for the kind words. BTW, where do you disagree with what I posted, that is, if you disagree with it? I'd like to know where the difference(s) lay.

    I am glad that everyone's not saying, "I agree", and "yes that is correct", "I concur" etc. Not that I like friction, but that it keeps the threads chugging along. What I DON'T like is all the negativity that gets thrust into some of their posts.
     
  8. Revmitchell

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    That particular post I don't.
     
  9. BobRyan

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    "He came to HIS OWN and HIS OWN received Him not" John 1

    [FONT=&quot]2Cor 5
    18 Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation,
    19 namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the WORLD to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.
    20 Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.[/FONT]


    First of all -- it is not at all clear that 2 Cor 5 is not dealing with the World indeed the "God so Loved the WORLD that He gave.." world of John 3:16 in the "Gospel basics" of scripture.

    [FONT=&quot]2Cor 5
    18 Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation,
    19 namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the WORLD to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.
    20 Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.[/FONT]


    2. Secondly it is not at all clear that coming to "HIS OWN" and being flatly rejected is making the case for Calvinism's mind-zap-gospel idea.

    "He came to HIS OWN and HIS OWN received Him not" John 1


    3. Thirdly you are not dealing with the "lament language" so clear in the majority of the OP text.

    [FONT=&quot]
    [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]Ezek 18[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
    30“Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, each according to his conduct,” declares the Lord GOD. “Repent and turn away from all your transgressions, so that iniquity may not become a stumbling block to you. [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]31“Cast away from you all your transgressions which you have committed and make yourselves a new heart and a new spirit! For why will you die, O house of Israel? [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]32“For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone who dies,” declares the Lord GOD. “Therefore, repent and LIVE!"

    [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]Matt 23[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]37“Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]38“Behold, your house is being left to you desolate![/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]Luke 7[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]28 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]When all the people and the tax collectors heard this, they acknowledged God’s justice, having been baptized with the baptism of John. [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]29 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]But the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected God’s purpose for themselves, not having been baptized by John.


    4. Fourthly - in the OP it is GOD's OWN People that "He did not give the hear for (keeping) God's Commandments" according to the Calvinist biased post being quoted there.

    [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]
    [/FONT]
     
    #9 BobRyan, Dec 14, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 14, 2013
  10. BobRyan

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    I know you don't like having this detail in your position exposed - however you never state your position in such a way as to escape the point made about that you are making God "the cause of His own Lament".

    Originally Posted by BobRyan [​IMG]
    We believe that man himself is the cause of his own condition [/quote]

    If man is the sole actor in the result of saved vs lost -- then we do not need a Savior we are able to save ourselves for we ALL know that some are saved and some are lost.

    Clearly you cannot actually believe that man is the sole cause of his condition saved or lost.

    That is a circular argument. Romans 8 is not blaiming God - because it is not teaching the Calvinist notion that you propose. You cannot argue that since Romans 8 is not blaiming God - then Calvinisms model is correct - when Romans 8 does not use it.

    You repudiate the result of your own position being stated. But you do not show that this is not the inescapable result in your view of Calvinist doctrine where "God is the cause of His own lament".

    As long as you argue that God is the one "making the difference" between the saved and the lost - and not the choices of man - then you make God the "cause of His own lament" when HE complains that HE has done EVERYTHING to save them - and yet they do not respond.

    [FONT=&quot]Matt 23[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]37“Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]38“Behold, your house is being left to you desolate![/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]Luke 7[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]28 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]When all the people and the tax collectors heard this, they acknowledged God’s justice, having been baptized with the baptism of John. [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]29 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]But the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected God’s purpose for themselves, not having been baptized by John.[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]
    [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]Is 5:4[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
    What could have been done more to my vineyard, that I have not done in it? wherefore, when I looked that it should bring forth grapes, brought it forth wild grapes?[/FONT]


    The list is almost endless in God's lament. As the thread on that subject shows - which Calvinists carefully avoid-

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  11. BobRyan

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    Making God out to be the cause of His own lament.

    The Calvinist argument cannot stop itself from making that mistake.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  12. BobRyan

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    Another very "instructive" comment on this subject - apparently not inclined to post here - but elsewhere.

    =======================================

    One of my primary complaints against 4 and 5 pt Calvinism is that it cannot be stated by its own promoters in such a way that does not make God the "cause of His own lament". (I think many here would have guessed that one for my list by now).

    Ok well that would be the "logic" lament you expressed above. It is not logical to make God the cause of His own lament over the lost where God says "What more could I do?" feigning some sort of extent when Calvinism knows 'exactly what MORE he could do -- He is just not choosing to do it".

    Like a child that does not study for the upcoming test - then failing then saying "oh what more could I have done!".

    Or like the parent that does not feed the children - complaining that the children are unhealthy and then lamenting "o what more could I do".

    It makes total nonsense of the one speaking to construct such cases making the speaker the cause of their own lament. Obviously.

    God says of the lost "what more could I have done that I have not done" - a statement that Calvinism does not survive in my opinion.

    Turns out - both sides see that point clearly. Which is why the issue of making God the "cause of His own lament" is so much the worse for Calvinism.


    Turns out - both sides see that point clearly - which is why the issue of making God the "cause of His own lament" is so much the worse for Calvinism. That lament is simply "not supposed to be in scripture" according to Calvinists - and as you point out - they don't like to read it.

    True. Only God says it. And "apparently" only Arminians admit to those scriptures being in existence.

    in Christ

    Bob
     
  13. BobRyan

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    And of course we have the global scope of the work of God - which explains how that lament of God can be so massive.

    2Peter 3 (KJV)
    9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
    10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.


    1 John 2 (NIV)
    2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

    2Cor 5
    "We beg you on behalf of Christ - be reconciled to God"

     
    #13 BobRyan, Jan 17, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 17, 2014
  14. BobRyan

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    Each time I see another "Calvinism denies free will" thread here - it reminds me of this thread that exposes the Bible problem that confronts the denial of free will.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  15. BobRyan

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    Several threads on Calvinism - even on other boards have had to deal with this issue and as we found here - it is a hard problem for Calvinists to solve. Maybe it is a sign that Calvinism has a flaw.
     
  16. BobRyan

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    [FONT=&quot]
    [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]Is 5:4[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
    What could have been done more to my vineyard, that I have not done in it? wherefore, when I looked that it should bring forth grapes, brought it forth wild grapes?[/FONT]


    Calvinism survives these texts by ignoring them.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  17. BobRyan

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    Certainly we can find examples of people making bad choices.

    Do you believe regeneration precedes the choice of the sinner to accept Christ as his Savior? Do you think that 4 and 5 point Calvinists believe in that?
    Those that do believe in it - do not think the sinner can come to Christ any other way.

    Steaver's post is in regard to a very specific point in 4 and 5 point calvinism.

    Which is devastating when you look at "God's Lament" where HE Himself asks the question "What more could I have DONE" -- it does not say "what more could you (lost sinner) have done".

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by BobRyan [​IMG]
    [FONT=&quot]God's Lament
    [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]“He CAME to HIS OWN and [/FONT][FONT=&quot]His OWN received Him not[/FONT][FONT=&quot]” John 1[/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]Matt 23[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]37“Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]38“Behold, your house is being left to you desolate![/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]Luke 7[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]28 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]When all the people and the tax collectors heard this, they acknowledged God’s justice, having been baptized with the baptism of John. [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]29 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]But the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected God’s purpose for themselves, not having been baptized by John.[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]
    [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]Is 5:4[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
    What could have been done more to my vineyard, that I have not done in it? wherefore, when I looked that it should bring forth grapes, brought it forth wild grapes?[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
    [/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]Response: [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] Well the Calvinist would have an answer for God's question on that one. An answer contrived via “extreme inference” in places like Deut 5:29. Calvinism would inform the world – and God Himself of just what God did to cause the lamentable result that God is complaining about in t[FONT=&quot]he verse above[/FONT].

    [FONT=&quot]I[FONT=&quot]n Calvinism i[/FONT][/FONT]f the result is wrong if it is to be lamented if the question [FONT=&quot]is to be asked "What more could have been done" w[FONT=&quot]ell [/FONT][/FONT]then Calvinism argues He [FONT=&quot]knows exactly what He failed to do [/FONT] - [FONT=&quot]in effect [/FONT] sabotaging His own plans - the cause of His own "lament" - or at the very least - being forgetful to "do the necessary" as the saying goes in India.[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]
    [/FONT]



    You will be the first to give it a serious shot then.

    Most will avoid the problem entirely.

    The text does not say "what more could you have done that you have not done" -

    you do not say "Every method that GOD tried fell short"

    But when God says "what more could I HAVE DONE " He asks a question you are not addressing - because you start off in your post admitting to the exact action God "could have done" to get a different outcome.

    How are we not supposed to see that??


    Indeed - you have already stated "what more" GOD could do to get to a different outcome.

    So then saved people of faith that pleased God in the OT like Heb 11 - Enoch, Moses, Elijah, Abraham -- all saved - but lost people in the OT -- lost and God lamenting the lost.

    Indeed but not all people alive since then are saved - we have the same "some saved and some lost" state as we had in the OT.

    God's question "what more could I HAVE DONE" in addressing the lost remains without an answer in Calvinism because it cannot exist in the Calvinist model.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  18. BobRyan

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    I think this is Iconoclasts way of saying that he is "almost ready" -- perhaps "almost getting ready" to address the texts highlighted in the OP of this thread.

    I think we may indeed - "be getting close"... to that day.

    I tried to make it "easier" for the Calvinists with this shorter version #17

    In all fairness - it is only been a little over a year or so...

    No rush.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #18 BobRyan, Jan 5, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 5, 2015
  19. Yeshua1

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    Is there any difference between the will of mankind before and after the fall of Adam?

    Can someone who had no sin nature be able to choose the same way those of us with a sin nature do?
     
  20. BobRyan

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    God enables the lost to choose without first making them sinless like Adam, before making them born-again saints. He did not need to do that supernatural work for Adam to have free will.

    That is "the only way " you can even have the possibility of ...

    [FONT=&quot]God's Lament
    [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]“He CAME to HIS OWN and [/FONT][FONT=&quot]His OWN received Him not[/FONT][FONT=&quot]” John 1[/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]Matt 23[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]37“Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]38“Behold, your house is being left to you desolate![/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]Luke 7[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]28 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]When all the people and the tax collectors heard this, they acknowledged God’s justice, having been baptized with the baptism of John. [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]29 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]But the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected God’s purpose for themselves, not having been baptized by John.[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]
    [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]Is 5:4[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
    What could have been done more to my vineyard, that I have not done in it? wherefore, when I looked that it should bring forth grapes, brought it forth wild grapes?[/FONT]
     
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