God's patience and longsuffering

Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by William C, Jul 19, 2003.

  1. William C

    William C
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    A question for Calvinists:

    Why does the Bible talk about God's patience and longsuffering in regard to salvation? Within the Calvinistic system, what is God waiting on? If he is the one who effectually calls isn't He just waiting on Himself to do the work?

    How do you reconcile that with His being patient and longsuffering with us? If it is truly "all of God" what exaclty is he waiting on?
     
  2. William C

    William C
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    I'll be patient with you, not wanting anyone of you to go without dealing with this objection.

    You see.

    Right now I'm expressing my desire for Calvinists to answer this question by expressing my patience, or my willingness to wait on all of you. If it were impossible for you to answer this objection without my giving you the right answer, wouldn't it be silly of me to express my desire for you to respond and my patience in waiting on you?
     
  3. Felix

    Felix
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    [​IMG] Wow!! Good question brother Bill! What is He waiting on? Let's just look at it from your point of view: God already knows everything from start to the end, knows who will be accepting his free offer of grace and 'elects according to His foreknowledge'. But if He already knows who will be saved and who will not, why is He still waiting? Or perhaps someone or something might surprise His omniscience? He knows it's going to happen doesn't He?
    See, if He already knows that a person will accept his offer, why 'wait' why have 'longsuffering' since it is a done deal considering His foreknowledge. Or, are we to say that suppose He 'waits' (like we humans do) until someone gets saved, what then? Will this create a relief in God's heart? What do you think?

    Nice try; next time however try first and see whether it works within your own system....
    God bless you
    [​IMG]
    Felix
     
  4. William C

    William C
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    I noticed that you didn't have an answer for your system, just an attack. Revealing.

    In my system God is waiting for man's response. Just because God knows man's response does not mean he is going to save them prior to them actually responding for themselves. Therefore, he is waiting on their response, because it is geniunly theirs.

    What is He waiting on in your system? You didn't ever answer that.
     
  5. Felix

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    Just because I didn't write it down, doesn't mean there is no answer...
    And...if my response carried a tone of an 'attack', I would like to apologize. I do not intend to 'attack' anyone in any way. Again, forgive me for this!

    As a matter of fact, my response is not much different then yours. Just because God knows man's response (and predestined it) does not mean he is going to save them prior to them actually responding for themselves. [Again, calvinists still believe in free will - after we are regenerated we freely choose Him.] Therefore, He is waiting on their response, because it is geniunly theirs.

    The point is, this verse carries enough weight for both views - so to speak - and it does not lean to prove any arminian view or contradict any calvinistic view. Hence, I almost consider this thread complete, unless you wish to continue on...

    God bless you and I want to thank you for prompting me to think through these issues.

    [I will be awake for the rest of the night and looking forward to browse through and absorb as many interesting insights within this board; I truly enjoy it and my goal is to learn and explore more God's wonderful revelation]

    Yours truly
    In Christ

    [​IMG] Felix
     
  6. William C

    William C
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    I appreciate you demeanor. When I said "attack" I just meant that you answered my question by questioning my views. This is actually not a bad debate tactic, but I was just calling you on it. No offense. [​IMG]

    I don't think that this answer really works for your system because you still have God waiting on himself, not on man. If it is God you effectually calls man to himself then he is not waiting on them to be persuaded, he would be waiting on himself to call. Therefore, the idea of patience/longsuffering doesn't make any sense within your system.

    Likewise [​IMG]
     
  7. tnelson

    tnelson
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    2 Peter 3:15
    "and consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you,"

    "the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation" In addition to what he has already explained in v.9 about the Lord's patience being the reason He delays judgment, here he adds that during the time of God's patience, Christians should engage in seeking the salvation of souls.

    mike [​IMG]
     
  8. William C

    William C
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    Again, I don't see this answering the problem but only supporting the objection. What does longsuffering have to do with salvation in your system? What is God waiting on except Himself? If indeed you believe salvation is "all of God" then there truly can't be anything to wait upon but himself. Why would God need to delay judgment when he is the one who decides if and when to effectually call themt to salvation. Please just answer this question: Who is God being patient with? Why?
     
  9. tnelson

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    God has an immense capacity for patience before he breaks forth in judgment. God endures endless blasphemies against His name, along with rebellion, murders, and the ongoning breaking of His law, waiting patiently while He is calling and redeeming His own. It is not impotence or slackness that delays final judgment, it is patience.

    The whole passage is about God destroying the wicked, his patience is not so He can save all of them, but so that He can receive all His own. He can't be waiting for everyone to be saved, since the emphasis is that He will destroy the world and the ungodly. Those who do perish and go to hell, go because they are depraved and worthy only of hell and have rejected the only remedy, Jesus Christ.

    mike :cool:
     
  10. Felix

    Felix
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    He could be waiting for you and me to go out and share the gospel with somebody. It is true that He is the one who decides when to effectually call an individual but He will not do this without those individuals hearing the gospel. His decrees exist from eternity, His effectual callings are executed in time by the Holy Spirit through the hearing of the Gospel! The Gospel is needed to be preached and to be heard in order to be saved. He is longsuffering and patient for all of us (elect) because He is not willing that any (the elect) should perish but come to repentance (and they surely will)!

    Let's not keep beeting a dead horse.. [​IMG] Just kidding

    God bless

    Felix
     
  11. William C

    William C
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    Nope, that explaination doesn't work because those he is expressing his patience for have already heard the gospel.
     
  12. Felix

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    Nope, that explaination doesn't work because those he is expressing his patience for have already heard the gospel.
    </font>[/QUOTE]Just how have you reached this conclusion?

    Felix
     
  13. tyndale1946

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    Brother Bill... Can the elect of God perish in an eternal sense?... If they can would we not be amiss to say God did not come to their rescue being patient and longsuffering enough?... Does perish always mean eternal separation to eternal damnation?... If so has not God cast away his children which he foreknew and he explictly states he would NEVER do?... You want to tackle Romans 8:29 thru 39 if you think any will perish that Christ died for... Brother Bill?... Maybe if you put the patience and longsuffering of God in the proper prespective you would understand it!... If any shall perish does not that prove that Jesus Christ has failed when the Angel stated he shall SAVE ALL his people?... Shall any perish that God The Father gave to God The Son Jesus The Christ to save?... NOT IN MY BIBLE! :eek: ... Brother Glen :rolleyes:
     
  14. William C

    William C
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    Nope, that explaination doesn't work because those he is expressing his patience for have already heard the gospel.
    </font>[/QUOTE]Just how have you reached this conclusion?

    Felix
    </font>[/QUOTE]When God speaks of having patience with people he is usually speaking about the Jews who have been hearing messages from the prophets for generations.

    Also, the scripture says, "he is patient with you" which is authors audience who has most assuredly heard the gospel if the apostles are taking the time to write them a letter.
     
  15. Felix

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    Hello brother Bill,

    Sorry for being out for so long again. I will just quote you something and see if you can wrestle with it:

    "We are here told that the Lord is not slack —he does not delay beyond the appointed time; as God kept the time that he had appointed for the delivering of Israel out of Egypt, to a day (Ex. 12:41), so he will keep to the time appointed in coming to judge the world... That what men count slackness is truly long-suffering, and that to us-ward; it is giving more time to his own people, whom he has chosen before the foundation of the world, many of whom are not as yet converted; and those who are in a state of grace and favour with God are to advance in knowledge and holiness, and in the exercise of faith and patience, to abound in good works, doing and suffering what they are called to, that they may bring glory to God, and improve in a meetness for heaven; for God is not willing that any of these should perish, but that all of them should come to repentance. Here observe, 1. Repentance is absolutely necessary in order to salvation. Except we repent, we shall perish, Lu. 13:3, 5. 2. God has no delight in the death of sinners: as the punishment of sinners is a torment to his creatures, a merciful God does not take pleasure in it; and though the principal design of God in his long-suffering is the blessedness of those whom he has chosen to salvation, through sanctification of the spirit, and belief of the truth, yet his goodness and forbearance do in their own nature invite and call to repentance all those to whom they are exercised; and, if men continue impenitent when God gives them space to repent, he will deal more severely with them, though the great reason why he did not hasten his coming was because he had not accomplished the number of his elect."
    Matthew Henry / Commentary

    He sure explains it better than I ever could.

    Thanks

    Felix
     

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