God's Preserved Words.

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by DeclareHim, Aug 3, 2004.

  1. DeclareHim

    DeclareHim
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    When God said He would preserve His Word was He being literal or was He just talking about the message found in the Bible? His plan of Salvation? (Please 'I like to debate with you KJVO' but guys stick to the topic on this one.)
     
  2. robycop3

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    What does the evidence, the historical line of how we got the Scriptures, show us? First, we see God Himself translated the apostles' preaching at the "first pentecost". Common sense says many of the words the apostles preached could not be translated exactly into some other languages, but God, who made all languages, caused the audience to hear them as He willed.

    Second, it's likely the oldest extant copies of the Old testament are not in the same language form Moses or his assistants wrote in.

    Third, Hebrew and Greek won't translate 100% into any other language. However, I believe God acts accordingly.

    What if the words Jesus cried from the cross-"Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani"-weren't translated into our languages? How many perple would know what He said? Shoot, even some of the spectators who heard Him didn't understand Him because they didn't know Aramaic. And the translation, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken ME?" isn't exact, but it's the best it can be rendered into English.

    Given the language differences, I believe we have the exact translations when it's possble, and the nearest rendering when exact translation is not possible. An example is where the Hebrew "almah" in Isaiah is rendered "virgin". An almah is much more than a virgin, and certainly much more than a 'young woman' but 'virgin' best conveys the meaning in short form, instead of saying, "young, devout, virtuous, unmarried, chaste Jewish woman" This is possible because in the NT, Mary is called a "parthenos", which is a virgin. The miracle is not that an almah has a child, but that a VIRGIN does. However, the virginity of an almah was a gimme. I believe God causes the legit translators to look at the WHOLE BIBLE to be able to make the best renderings according to the whole context. Obviously we don't have a 100% exact translation, but we have what God has willed for us to have.
     
  3. natters

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    I like what robycop3 said. To add to it, I would say that God's words are preserved not simply as pages on a shelf, but when we read them with a prayerful heart, open to the leading of the Holy Spirit. Without the continual guidance of the Holy Spirit, the most "perfect" words in book form are not much use when they are not read or not understood properly. One person can read the KJV or NIV without the Holy Spirit, and end up denying the divinity of Christ, they are without God's preserved word. Another person can read either the KJV or NIV with the guidance of the Holy Spirit and come to the correct conclusion about the divinity of Christ, because they read God's preserved word.
     
  4. Johnv

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    The message of scripture IS his Word. There's no scripture whatsoever that supports the idea that only one translation should exist for everyone.

    Come to think of it, there's no scripture that speaks to translations at all, so I guess we're all doomed [​IMG]
     
  5. superdave

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    The fact that we have several good English translations is further proof that we have indeed God's very word. That does not mean that we should not study the available manuscripts, and indeed, I think that it is a shame when a man who claims to be a shepherd of his flock does not feel its important to be capable of going back at least to the original languages, if not reading the manuscripts themselves. We have many good language references to allow for proper study, and several good English translations for those of us who are linguistically challanged.

    I agree with both the above posts. Because of the incredible volume of manuscript evidence, with very little work on our part (unlike countless generations in the past) be confident that we are indeed studying the very Words of God, preserved for us.
     
  6. DeclareHim

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    Thanks I agree with you all and you guys made some very good points thanks for posting if anyone else has an opion feel free to go ahead and post it.
     
  7. Trotter

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    Natters-

    I think the word you were looking for is "illumination."

    -----------------------------------------------

    I agree with the above.

    Contrary to what some "people" post on this forum, God has preserved His word from the get-go, and He continues to do so with each and every translaation that comes out.

    While not everyone can study the original languages (I have not had the opportunity as of yet), there are a vast array of reference works and study helps that anyone can use (I am not afraid to stadn on the shoulders of these 'giants'). But to stand proudly in ignorance is inexcusable, especially if it is a man of God.

    In Christ,
    Trotter
     
  8. Repent_and_Believe

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    For one thing I dont believe in KJVO but I do believe that the KJV is the most accurate translation we have. I believe that certain English bibles that came before it were very good. Wycliffe and Tyndale for instance.

    Now as to the question of what was brought over in the translation. Was it the message or the words.

    1 Words have a real meaning. Merely suggesting that the message is the important thing is to disregard the meaning of the words. To leave out certain words in a sentence leaves out the importance of a message and can lead some to believe another message.

    For instance:

    John 7:8 says: Go ye up unto this feast: I go not up YET unto this feast; for my time is not yet full come.

    Now check out various modern translations. The word YET is missing in some. I believe it is also missing in many of the Greek texts that they use for their authority.

    Now check out John 7:14 Now about the midst of the feast Jesus went up into the temple and taught.

    Thus if you go with the KJV you get Jesus saying that he will not be going up YET to the feast implying that he will be joining them later.

    Take out YET and Jesus just lied! With the word missing it reads:

    I go not up to this feast.

    Thus Jesus would be saying that he is not going to the feast at all.

    Which is one reason why I believe that the words are also inspired. Thus Verbal Inspiration. I Cor 2:13, Matt 24:35, Jer 1:9, Matt 5:18 jot and tittles were important!

    Another example:

    Mark 1:2-3 Every modern translation I have seen has this wrong.

    Here is what the KJV says:

    Mark 1:2 As it is written in the PROPHETS, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare they way before thee.
    v. 3 The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.

    PROPHETS implies more than one prophet. Hey, that's not rocket science as a good friend of mine used to say. And the prophets are Malachi and Isaiah. The former for verse 2 and the latter for verse 3.

    Now check out the Nestle Greek NT as well as most if not all modern versions.

    They ready something like this:

    As it is written in the prophet Isaiah ...

    And then go on to quote Malachi. Yes, the statement after the Malachi quote is from Isaiah. But its not the translator's fault that the Greek text he was using said Isaiah. He didnt use Isaiah on his own instead of prophets because the latter is not in the "minority" texts as I call them.

    Now as to punctuation.

    Check this out:

    A man in the US was contacted by his wife. She was in London on travel and wanted to buy a new fur coat. She sent off a telegram to that effect and told him the price. His reply in the old teletype days was:

    No. Price too great.

    However, the message that got back to her was:

    No price too great.

    So she bought the coat!

    The removal of a simple period made the message totally different. And Western Union has since that time used the phrase STOP to mean a period.

    Thus punctuation is important. And that is why the 1611 had to be revised. There were printer's and minor punctuation errors in it.

    Ok, so far so good. Now check this one out for you that say that language is a problem and has a different meaning.

    What language did God speak to Paul in on the road to Damascus (Acts 9). Greek? No. Hebrew. You have to turn to Acts 26:14 to find this. Its not in Acts 9. The Lord spoke to Paul in Hebrew.

    Thus if God can speak to Paul in Hebrew and the Holy Ghost give the Greek words to Luke then God can give the words to translators as well or at least help them to make his promise of Mt 5:18 stand up.

    Greek is as different from Hebrew as English is to Greek. One is precise, the other poetic and English in its form by 1611 was at it highest point in correct usage and beauty.

    See also Acts 22:2 where Paul speaks to them in the Hewbrew tongue but Luke is given the words by God in Greek. And we have Paul's address in English today. Preserved words so that we dont miss the correct meaning of his message.

    Is the Bible a book just for the children of Israel? No. Was it just for the early Christians? No. Its for us too. Men like Tyndale died to get the written words of God into English. They defied the existing religious crowd that said that the Bible shouldnt be in the hands of the common people.

    Its really not the much different today. You have the NIV copyright protected as if the word is bound by one organization. And men tell you, good men, that they will get us the Word in English eventually. We just need to give them time. One thing we dont have is time. We need a book we can trust. We have one in English and need no more.

    Josh 1:8 This book of the Law shall not depart out of they mouth ... how can you have a book if you dont have the precise words to go with it? How can you know to do what God commands you to do if all you have is a round idea based on texts that have holes in them?

    Jer 36:28 - God commands Jeremiah by his scribe to write all of the words again and he adds in more. Not the message. The words. He is an exact God. Not a god that makes you wonder what he is up to.

    IS the KJV a better version of scripture than the Greek? No. Both are from the same source - God. The words inspired by God, given to man, translated into different languages.

    When the Greek and KJV differ (Easter vs. passover) there are reasons for this. Good men have explained the differences and this forum is not of sufficient size to go through each one by one.

    Thus my answer: the Word of God contains the very words of God, is inspired in all of its extent (plenary) and is not bound by language.

    As it was pointed out, God, in Acts 2, used the Apostles to speak in other tongues that the hearers could understand (12 known languages). Here was direct translation by God himself as the Spriit gave them utterance. It is not impossible to believe that the same God that used men throughout the Bible could use the KJV translators to bring out a final English version so that we would have a Bible that we can trust.
     
  9. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards
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    Repent_and_Believe:
    //(in the KJV1769): John 7:8 says: Go ye up unto this feast: I go not
    up YET unto this feast; for my time is not yet full come.

    //Now check out various modern translations. The word
    YET is missing in some.//

    This is NOT a translation problem.
    This is a source variation problem.
    But the KJV does not show that it is.

    Repent_and_Believe: //Mark 1:2-3 Every modern translation I
    have seen has this wrong.

    //Here is what the KJV(1769) says:

    //Mark 1:2 As it is written in the PROPHETS, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare they way before thee.
    v. 3 The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.

    //PROPHETS implies more than one prophet. Hey, that's not rocket science as a good friend of mine used to say. And the
    prophets are Malachi and Isaiah. The former for verse 2
    and the latter for verse 3.//

    This is NOT a translation problem.
    This is a source variation problem.
    But the KJV does not show that it is.

    //Now as to punctuation.//

    These are translation problems, for the
    source has no punctuation.

    Here is my favorite punctuation problem fixed:
    (parenthesis added by ed)

    Psalm 12:1-8 (HCSB):
    1 Help, Lord, for no faithful one remains;
    the loyal have disappeared from the human race.
    2 They lie to one another;
    they speak with flattering lips and deceptive hearts.
    3 May the Lord cut off all flattering lips
    and the tongue that speaks boastfully.
    4 They say, ";Through our tongues we have power;
    our lips are our own-who can be our master?";
    5 ";Because of the oppression of the afflicted
    and the groaning of the poor,
    I will now rise up,"; says the Lord.
    ";I will put in a safe place the one who longs for it.";
    6 (The words of the Lord are pure words,
    like silver refined in an earthen furnace,
    purified seven times.)
    7 You, Lord, will guard us;
    You will protect us from this generation forever. 8 The wicked wander everywhere,
    and what is worthless is exalted by the human race.

    But I love to praise Jesus in 17th Century talk:
    [​IMG] Praise Iesus, the Christ [​IMG]
     

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