God's Purpose - Done or to be done?

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by The Biblicist, Apr 24, 2012.

  1. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist
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    Isa. 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:
    11 Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.

    How does God view His own purpose? Does he view it has already done or something not yet done but must be done?

    There are some on this forum that tell us that God view his eternal purpose as done. They tell us that God's purpose to save, justify, call, glorify are viewed by God as done and thus God view the elect as already savED, justifiED, callED and already glorifiED in regard to REALITY!

    Now, there is no question that God views His purpose as good as done as he says "I will do it" and therefore can speak of it as certain. However, that is something far different then viewing it as actually already accomplished and thus already actually saved, called, justified, and glorified and all is necessary for the elect is simply to realize it experientially or be informed about it. Now, Christ "finished" the predestinated means and so the predestinated means/basis can be viewed as finished but it has saved no one until it is applied and only when applied can it be said the elect are "saved" or called, or justified or glorified.

    Some on this forum teach that the elect is already justified before the world began and/or already justified by Christ's work of redemption as well as already saved, called and glorified before the world began and by Christ's work of redemption.

    However, this is a failure to distinguish the difference between what God has purposed versus what God has predestinated to be provided and applied to the elect.

    God has purposed the means as well as the application and both means and application are things God views as things "I will do it" not I have already done it.

    There is no value in God's purpose without the predestined means and application.

    There is no value in God's predestinated means without application.

    The purpose, means and application cannot be separated from each other and individually be regarded as making salvation already complete without the other. The purpose might be regarded as a completed purpose. The means by regarded as a completed means but there is no actual saved, called, justified or glorified until actual application has occurred.

    Hence, What God purposed in eternity is not regarded by God as done but soemthing God views as "I WILL do it."

    Hence, what God has predestinated to be the means or basis to accomplish His purpose (the redemptive work of Christ) does not save, justify, redeem anyone apart from God's predestinated application through God's predestinated means (The work of the Holy Spirit). Hence, the redemptive work of Christ did not actually justify, redeem, sanctify, glorify anyone any more then the eternal purpose of God did actually justify, redeem, sanctify, or glorify anyone but is yet something God views as "I WILL do it."

    Only when the predestinated application of God's purpose and means has occured are the elect actually saved, justified, sanctified, and or glorified because only then does God not have to say "I WILL do it" becuase He has already DONE it.
     
    #1 The Biblicist, Apr 24, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 24, 2012
  2. savedbymercy

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    God's objective Purpose is Done, subjectively, it is being done !

    For instance, The Elect of God are Justified before God due to their being in Christ before the world began [Eph 1:4; 2 Tim 1:9], and because of that, God never imputed their law breaking to their charge, which they would incur when they would sin in Adam after Creation !

    All Transgressions that the Elect would commit beginning in Adam, were laid to the Charge of Christ their Surety ! God never look to them for payment for their law breaking, for He was already in Covenant with Christ, and Looked to Him to pay their debt to His law and Justice, and they had been acquitted !
     
  3. The Biblicist

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    Absolutely false! The object of God's purpose was not accomplished before the world began! That is precisely what God Himself means when he says "I have purposed it, and I WILL DO it."

    What "I have purposed" is ABSTRACT in nature but what he says "I WILL DO" is Subjective in nature and when it occurs it is CONCRETE in nature.


    Abstractly the elect were already saved and justified but concretely they were born UNDER SIN and UNDER CONDEMNATION as they were born UNDER THE LAW condemned as sinners.
     
  4. savedbymercy

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    the bib

    No its not, and it is absolute blasphemy to say otherwise. God is Eternal and nothing outside of His Own Purpose in Himself declares anything He Eternally Purposed as not to Him being actual and factual. Now to creatures outside of God these things come to pass with succession of time !
     
  5. The Biblicist

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    The eternal covenant of redemption is a THREE PERSON WORK not a ONE Person Work. It is not finished until the work of ALL THREE have finished their covenant work.

    The Father finished the redemptive purpose before the world began. The Son finished the redemptive provision at the cross but none of the elect are "saved" or "regenerated" or justified" or glorified until the Holy Spirit finishes each of these aspects of His work of redemption.

    The elect were saved, regenerated, justified and glorified by ABSTRACT purpose before the world began but not concretely as that is something yet God says "I WILL do".

    The elect were saved, regenerated, justified and glorified by the PROVISIONAL redemption by Christ at the cross but they were not concretedly saved, regenerated, justified or glorified in reality as that is somehting God says "I WILL do."

    The elect are saved, regenerated, justified and glorified by the APPLICATION work of the Holy Spirit in time and space according to the purposed order of the Father and according to the obtained redemptive provision by the Son.

    There is no such thing as elect ALREADY saved, regenerated, called, glorified realistically and concretely before application and there is no such thing as ONE Person's work in the covenant of redemption that stands alone but completes the salvation of the elect from the other works of the Two other Person's of the Trinity but that is exactly your soteriological premise.

    The eternal purpose did not objectively obtain any kind of reality but is something God views "I WILL do it"

    11 Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.
     
  6. savedbymercy

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    bib

    I know how many Persons of the Godhead who are responsible for Salvation. I am glad you bought that up, so now tell us when were the sins of the Elect made Christ's responsibility in the Covenant agreement ?

    Now answer that question !
     
  7. The Biblicist

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    I have answered that question so many times and you have failed to grasp it so many times it is rediculous to ask it again.

    You are again talking about the ETERNAL PURPOSE which is composed of this agreement within the Trinity. This is what they AGREED upon NOT WHAT THEY ALREADY ACCOMPLISHED IN ETERNITY PAST. IT IS SOMETHING THAT COMES UNDER THE HEAD "I WILL DO" NOT WHAT COMES UNDER THE HEADING OF I HAVE DONE!
     
  8. savedbymercy

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    Answer it again, when were the sins of the elect given to be Christ's Responsibilty when the Triune God counseled among themselves in the Eternal Purpose or Covenant in Christ ? Eph 3:11

    11according to the eternal purpose which He hath purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord,
     
  9. The Biblicist

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    Do you have a problem reading English? I answered it in that post! I will simply repost my answer:

    You are again talking about the ETERNAL PURPOSE which is composed of this agreement within the Trinity. This is what they AGREED upon NOT WHAT THEY ALREADY ACCOMPLISHED IN ETERNITY PAST. IT IS SOMETHING THAT COMES UNDER THE HEAD "I WILL DO" NOT WHAT COMES UNDER THE HEADING OF I HAVE DONE!

    The Covenant is one of PURPOSE not one of ACCOMPLISHMENT of what they purposed before the world began. It what they purposed before the world began but the content of which comes under the heading "I WILL DO" not I HAVE DONE.
     
  10. The Biblicist

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    Let me ask you this question: Do you believe that one of God's elect could die before they are converted to the gospel and still go to heaven because God purposed their salvation and thus they are saved already and Christ redeemed them and so they are redeemed already?

    If not, then why suggest that any previous act of God actually obtains their salvation because if that were the case then God's purpose and provision are COMPLETE without Holy Spirit application!

    The fact is that Gods' purpose and Christ's provision are not complete wthout Holy Spirit application and so it is foolish to speak of them as already saved, regenerated, justified or glorified in any realistic sense prior to Holy Spirit application of God's purpose and Christs redemption.

    God's purpose was completed before the world began but still God said of its content "I WILL DO" it not I HAVE DONE it.

    Christ's redemptive work was "finished" while on earth but still it had no application to the person of the elect apart from the application work of the Holy Spirit OR ELSE the work of the Holy Spirit is not necessary since you place it under "I HAVE DONE" instead of "I WILL DO it."

    All Three works of the Trinue God are essential and not any single work by any single Person of the Holy Spirit can accomplish anything apart from the rest so why treat it as though it can???
     
  11. savedbymercy

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    the bib

    Yes, when did Christ Christ agree to become the Surety. Was it before the world began or not ?
     
  12. savedbymercy

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    Once the Father agreed with the Son or vice versa, at that time payment for the sin debts of those Christ became a surety unto , became due from the Surety ! God never looked to the actual debtor's to pay for their own transgressions against His Law and Justice, they were never legally charged, and all this was before the world began.
     
  13. Yeshua1

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    From Gods point of view, I am already seated in heaven with jesus, and will be glorified, yet at same 'time', I am growing more into the image of Christ while here upon the earth...

    So even though god sees and knows all that will come to pass does not mean I have to do 'something' to bring it to pass, in this case place faith in Christ!
     
  14. The Biblicist

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    You still don't understand that what happened before the world began did not actualize before the world began! Christs committment before the world began is part of God's eternal purpose just as much as the Father electing and giving them to Christ to redeem and the Holy Spirit's committment to apply and secure - ALL OF IT is what the TRINUE God purposed before the world began but NONE OF IT actualized before the world began.

    ALL of it fit under the words "what I have purposed" in regard to before the world began but none of it were accomplished before the world began. ALL of its before the world began still comes under the heading "I WILL DO it."


    - "I have purposed" not what I HAVE DONE in regard to implimentation!
     
  15. savedbymercy

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    the bib

    An Eternal Covenant was pacted, and Christ agreed to be the Surety of the Election of Grace, based upon that, their sins were never charged against them ! They were before God free of any sin and condemnation against them, and Christ was the debtor !
     
  16. Yeshua1

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    Do you hold that we are under the great Commission today in the church?

    if so, why? Since you hold the elect are already justified by God!
     
  17. savedbymercy

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    yesh

    Off topic !
     
  18. Yeshua1

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    IF we are freely justified by god beforehand, regardless of needing faith, as you state, why even Evangelize?
     
  19. savedbymercy

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    Its not as I said, The scripture declares it, everyone Christ died for, was Justified before God, the Resurrection is evidence of it Rom 4:25

    25who was delivered for[because of] our offenses, and was raised again for[because of] our justification.
     
  20. The Biblicist

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    you demand everyone answers your questions and posts why not answer his question or do you live on a one way street???
     

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