God's Ten Commandments in the "Baptist Confession of Faith" and other affirmations

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by BobRyan, Jan 23, 2015.

  1. BobRyan

    BobRyan
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    I have been affirming a number of points made in section 19 by the "Baptist Confession of Faith" - showing that I agree with 6 of 7 main points I have identified (summarized) in that section.

    I suspect some here will agree with all 7 - and others opposed to the Ten Commandments will oppose all 7 points made in section 19.



    ====================== answered -

    Originally Posted by BobRyan [​IMG]
    "BAPTIST Confession of Faith" section 19.

    Meanwhile --

    [FONT=&quot]Links that remain as of today[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]http://www.vor.org/truth/1689/1689bc01.html[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]http://www.vor.org/truth/1689/1689bc19.html[/FONT]


    [FONT=&quot]As revised by Spurgeon 1855[/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]http://www.spurgeon.org/~phil/creeds/bcof.htm[/FONT][/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]http://www.spurgeon.org/~phil/creeds/bcof.htm#part19[/FONT][/FONT]


    ================================================

    Section 19:

    C.H. Spurgeon's edition of the "Baptist Confession of Faith" -- [FONT=&quot]CH Spurgeon[/FONT][FONT=&quot]

    [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]

    “The Perpetuity of the Law of God”
    [/FONT][FONT=&quot]
    [/FONT]Very great mistakes have been made about the law. Not long ago there were those about us who affirmed that the law is utterly abrogated and abolished, and they openly taught that believers were not bound to make the moral law the rule of their lives. What would have been sin in other men they counted to be no sin in themselves. From such Antinomianism as that may God deliver us. We are not under the law as the method of salvation, but we delight to see the law in the hand of Christ, and desire to obey the Lord in all things. Others have been met with who have taught that Jesus mitigated and softened down the law, and they have in effect said that the perfect law of God was too hard for imperfect beings, and therefore God has given us a milder and easier rule. These tread dangerously upon the verge of terrible error, although we believe that they are little aware of it.

    Section 19 of the "Baptist Confession of Faith" .

    Section 19
    . The Law of God

    • God gave to Adam a law of universal obedience which was written in his heart, and He gave him very specific instruction about not eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. By this Adam and all his descendants were bound to personal, total, exact, and perpetual obedience, being promised life upon the fulfilling of the law, and threatened with death upon the breach of it. At the same time Adam was endued with power and ability to keep it.


    • The same law that was first written in the heart of man continued to be a perfect rule of righteousness after the Fall, and was delivered by God upon Mount Sinai in the TEN COMMANDMENTS, and written in two tables, the first four containing our duty towards God, and the other six, our duty to man.


    • Besides this law, commonly called the moral law, God was pleased do give the people of Israel ceremonial laws containing several typical ordinances. These ordinances were partly about their worship, and in them Christ was prefigured along with His attributes and qualities, His actions, His sufferings and His benefits. These ordinances also gave instructions about different moral duties. All of these ceremonial laws were appointed only until the time of reformation, when Jesus Christ the true Messiah and the only lawgiver, Who was furnished with power from the Father for this end, cancelled them and took them away.


    • To the people of Israel He also gave sundry judicial laws which expired when they ceased to be a nation. These are not binding on anyone now by virtue of their being part of the laws of that nation, but their general equity continue to be applicable in modern times.

    The moral law ever binds to obedience everyone, justified people as well as others, and not only out of regard for the matter contained in it, but also out of respect for the authority of God the Creator, Who gave the law. Nor does Christ in the Gospel dissolve this law in any way, but He considerably strengthens our obligation to obey it

    ==============================

    7 summary points --



    1. That the Sabbath Commandment is first given to mankind in Gen 2:1-3
    2. That all mankind was obligated by the TEN commandments in the OT and to this very day.
    3. That the seventh day as the Sabbath was Saturday the seventh day of the week from Gen 2:1-3 until NT times - including at the cross.
    4. That the Ten Commandments are the moral Law of God
    5. That the moral law of God is written on the heart under the New Covenant
    6. that the Ten Commandments as the moral law of God are in no way opposed to grace and the Gospel.
    7. That the Sabbath commandment can rightly be BENT by man-made-tradition to point to week-day-1 after the cross.

    I agree with 6 out of 7 as listed above - and yet many who post against God's TEN commandments object to all of the points listed above. And sometimes they will even go on to complain that so many of the points above are in agreement with my position and opposed to the war-against-the-Ten-Commandments position.


    ===============================

    Short list of some other groups that affirm 6 or 7 of the points above -

    "Baptist Confession of Faith"
    "Westminster Confession of Faith"
    C.H. Spurgeon
    Andy Stanley
    Matthew Henry
    [FONT=&quot]Jamieson, Fausset, Brown

    R.C Sproul
    "D.L. Moody"
    "Dies Domini"
    --many others

    [/FONT]
     
  2. BobRyan

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    DHK has an outstanding question on this as well

    Heb 4 - "The remains therefore a Sabbath rest for the people of God"

    who as the saints - "keep the Commandments of God AND their Faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12

    ======================================================

    As for the TEN Commandments --

    Bible texts both NT and OT about God's Commandments - Showing that the TEN Commandments are assigned the title "in scripture" as being "Commandments of God" -- and as also being "The Word of God"

    10 Commandments are –
    Commandments of God” Neh 10:29
    “Law of God” Neh 10:29
    “Word of God” Mark 7:13
    “Commandment of God” Mark 7:6-13
    NT “Scripture” James 2:8
    NT “Law” – James 2:9-11
    NT Commandments Eph 6:2, Rom 13:9, Romans 7:7-10

    Mark 7

    7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
    8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
    9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
    10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
    11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
    12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
    13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

    Note that in 1John 5 - John contrasts "LOVE", to the Commandments of God. He does not say "By this we know that we Love God -- if we Love God".

    Rather John points to obedience to the WORD of God "the Commandments of God" as the sign that we truly to LOVE God. Being at war against his Word is not such a great sign of "loving God" as some had perhaps imagined.

    1 John 5
    "Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and whoever loves the Father loves the child born of Him.
    2By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and observe His commandments.
    3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments
    are not burdensome. 1 John 5:1-3

    ================================================== ========
    Paul affirms the Ten Commandments (see point 5 below) AND He never claims that "if I did not write it -- it is not scripture for us today" -- as one or two have imagined for us.

    1. Paul never commands gentiles to "Love God WITH ALL your heart".
    2. Paul never commands gentiles "not to take God's name in vain"
    3. Paul never commands gentiles to ignore the writings of Moses.
    4. Paul DOES tell gentiles that Moses' writings are still authoritative scripture in 1Cor 9:8-9 and 1Tim 5:18 and binding as being "Law" and as being "scripture".
    5. Paul quotes from Moses and the TEN Commandments Eph 6:2. Full 5th commandment
    6. Paul DOES teach that there remains therefore a "Sabbath rest for the people of God" Hebrews 4.
    7. Paul DOES tell gentiles that "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of GOD" 1 Cor 7:19
    8. Paul does tell gentiles "it is not the HEARERS of the Law that are just before God but the DOERS of the Law will be justifIED... on the day when according to my GOSPEL God will judge all mankind" Rom 2:13-16
    9. Paul DOES ask that gentiles consider the doctrine of LAW "Do we then make void the LAW of God by our faith? God forbid! In fact we establish the Law of God" Rom 3:31
    10. Paul DOES tell gentiles that it is only the lost who will "not subject themselves to the LAw of God neither indeed CAN they" Rom 8:6-8
    11. Paul DOES tell gentiles that "The Law" is in fact "The LAW of Moses" and is to be used for testing doctrine 1Cor 9:8-9
    12. Paul DOES tell gentiles that the OT text is to be used for Doctrine 2Tim 3:16
     
  3. BobRyan

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    DHK is not the only one who objects to God's Sabbath Commandment as noted here -


    =========================================================

    For example -- D.L. Moody notices that some are opposed to the Sabbath Commandment


    BY THE
    DWIGHT L. MOODY
    The Ten Commandments:
    Exodus 20:2-17
    .
    The Fourth Commandment

    Remember the Sabbath Day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: for in six days the LORD made heaven and Earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath Day, and hallowed it.

    [FONT=&quot]THERE HAS BEEN an awful letting-down in this country regarding the Sabbath during the last twenty-five years, and many a man has been shorn of spiritual power, like Samson, because he is not straight on this question. Can you say that you observe the Sabbath properly? You may be a professed Christian: are you obeying this commandment? Or do you neglect the house of God on the Sabbath day, and spend your time drinking and carousing in places of vice and crime, showing contempt for God and His law? Are you ready to step into the scales? Where were you last Sabbath? How did you spend it?

    I honestly believe that this commandment is just as binding today as it ever was. I have talked with men who have said that it has been abrogated, but they have never been able to point to any place in the Bible where God repealed it. When Christ was on earth, He did nothing to set it aside; He freed it from the traces under which the scribes and Pharisees had put it, and gave it its true place. [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]"The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath." (Mark 2:27) [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]It is just as practicable and as necessary for men today as it ever was[/FONT][FONT=&quot]- in fact, more than ever, because we live in such an intense age.

    The Sabbath was binding in Eden, and it has been in force ever since. The fourth commandment begins with the word remember, showing that the Sabbath already existed when God wrote this law on the tables of stone at Sinai.
    How can men claim that this one commandment has been done away with when they will admit that the other nine are still binding?

    I believe that the Sabbath question today is a vital one for the whole country. It is the burning question of the present time. If you give up the Sabbath the church goes; [/FONT] __________________
    ===============================================================

    D.L. Moody or C.H. Spurgeon were SDA - yet they could honestly admit to some Bible details that some here claim only SDAs could know about.
     
  4. DHK

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    Why not keep your thread relevant to the posters on the board instead of people whose beliefs we cannot question. Moody was a Congregational Evangelist with ties to the Brethren. Later he established the YMCA, and was largely non-denominational. That is not a reflection of Baptist beliefs.
    Why not include the RCC. You did on the other thread any way. You are being absurd.

    If you want to compare your beliefs to others then be relevant.
    I don't care what Moody believed. He is no one's authority. Why do you quote him? What does it prove? How does it make your position any stronger or weaker? It doesn't. He even distanced himself from the SDA, which makes your stand even weaker. I don't understand your line of reasoning at all.
    Furthermore you twist his beliefs. You are dishonest. His definition of "Sabbath" was totally different than yours.

    You are not proving anything by quoting such people.
    The people you ought to be quoting are the people on this board.
     
  5. BobRyan

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    I did include the RCC. They are in my list of pro-sunday sources.

    But I quoted the "Baptist Confession of Faith" instead of the RCC for an example of the 7 points in keeping with the thread title.

    You are one of those who admits to objecting to all 7 points in the Baptist Confession of Faith - section 19.

    You appear to be claiming that you speak for "all Baptists" in your rejection of the Baptist Confession of Faith - as if nothing pertains to Baptists that you do not approve of yourself. Or are you saying that you did a survey here at BB and found that you have no posters in favor of that document?

    Because as it turns out -- I did not even know about that document until I came here and one of your fellow Baptists pointed me in that direction.

    Are you sure your claims are not a bit "over the top"??

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  6. DHK

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    What is the purpose of this thread? What are you trying to prove (or debate)?
    This is a debate forum. So what is the debate here?
     
  7. BobRyan

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    [FONT=&quot]Are these two -- the same poster??
    [/FONT]
     
  8. DHK

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    Your evading my question:
     
  9. BobRyan

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    Some people will fully agree with all 7 points of the "Baptist Confession of Faith" and those who do will have no problem at all with D.L. Moody's statements on the topic.

    They will object to the fact that others here oppose all 7 points listed, and they will object to the 1 point of difference I have with that 7 point list.

    Conversely those opposed to ALL 7 points of the Baptist Confession of Faith - section 19 will not be happy with it, or with D.L Moody's strong endorsement of what the Bible records as the 4th Commandment as Moody quotes it in his text. They will not be happy with my affirmation of the 6 of the 7 points that they oppose either.

    So then... no shortage of debate bandwidth.

    As for why I post it - it is because it does away with the "Just SDAs will notice those bible details" sort of argument.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  10. DHK

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    It is a total non sequitor as to our beliefs today.
    Moody is irrelevant. He was a Congregationalist, and most have not read all his works.
    There is NO "Baptist Confession of Faith," that is universal to all Baptist.

    You have no authoritative source from which to debate from.
    It is a useless thread IMO.

    Now, if you want to debate why the position of the SDA is wrong from a Biblical viewpoint, that would be a better subject. There is no agreement from the haphazard way you have framed this.
     
  11. BobRyan

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    The statement "universal to all baptists" only comes from you -- never from me.

    Sadly you cannot do that because this thread proves that your war against 6 of those 7 points on the first page of the thread is NOT against just SDAs.

    You would not make your goal of trying to "imagine" that your war against the 6 points was only an issue between you and SDAs when in fact you know -- there is in fact a 'Baptist Confession of Faith" you are warring against though 'wishing" it were "just SDAs".

    And that is "instructive" for unbiased objective readers.

    Details matter.

    Facts matter.

    Acrimony and vitriol cannot cause everyone to turn a blind eye to facts to the contrary -

    You use "harrumph tone" to argue that there is no agreement on the 6 points - but we all see there is in fact perfect agreement.

    I you have a spec of hope of proving otherwise -- let us see your argument -- not simply your vitriol.

    Any JW or Mormon or Jesuit or Muslim can express nothing more substantive than "vitriol" when facts do not feed their preference. I think you and I both agree on that point. (to be fair to them - most of them do not do that)

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  12. Salty

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    It also comes from me!!!
    and its very possible that DHK and I would not agree 100% on a doctrine statement!

    Item # 7
    1677/89 London Baptist confession of Faith:

    As it is the law of nature, that in general a proportion of time, by God's appointment, be set apart for the worship of God, so by his Word, in a positive moral, and perpetual commandment, binding all men, in all ages, he hath particularly appointed one day in seven for a sabbath to be kept holy unto him, which from the beginning of the world to the resurrection of Christ was the last day of the week, and from the resurrection of Christ was changed into the first day of the week, which is called the Lord's day: and is to be continued to the end of the world as the Christian Sabbath, the observation of the last day of the week being abolished. ( Exodus 20:8; 1 Corinthians 16:1, 2; Acts 20:7; Revelation 1:10 )

    Note: bold is my emphasis!

    New Hampshire COF:
    We believe that the first day of the week is the Lord's Day, or Christian Sabbath; and is to be kept sacred to religious purposes, by abstaining from all secular labor and sinful recreations; by the devout observance of all the means of grace, both private and public; and by preparation for that rest that remaineth for the people of God.

    again - Bold is my emphasis

    Now you know what Baptists (other than 7th Day Baptists) believe about the Sabbath!

    Now days, many Baptist no longer refer to the Lords Day as the Sabbath - in spite of what any Baptist COF says.
     
    #12 Salty, Jan 23, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 23, 2015
  13. BobRyan

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    I do not use the term "universal to all baptists" when it comes to the "Baptist Confession of Faith" -- DHK uses that term in his posts.

    Fine -- you and DHK are free to use the term any way you wish.

    I do not use it in connection with the "Baptist Confession of Faith" topic. I don't because I don't believe the document is used that way. Rather it demonstrates that "Regular Baptists" and others that affirm Spurgeon's teachings agree with the 7points listed.

    So then... just stating the obvious.

    I quoted from section 19. And so 6 of the 7 points come from there.

    The 7th point in the list on the OP comes from section 22 - which you now offer to quote for us. You may be one who actually agrees with the BCoF -- though it appears that those who do agree with it - are timid about admitting it here on BB.



    When you read the 7th point in the OP and first page statements it claims these guys are "changing" the 4th commandment even as they admit to "the change" in their own text as we see here

    7 summary points --



    1. That the Sabbath Commandment is first given to mankind in Gen 2:1-3
    2. That all mankind was obligated by the TEN commandments in the OT and to this very day.
    3. That the seventh day as the Sabbath was Saturday the seventh day of the week from Gen 2:1-3 until NT times - including at the cross.
    4. That the Ten Commandments are the moral Law of God
    5. That the moral law of God is written on the heart under the New Covenant
    6. that the Ten Commandments as the moral law of God are in no way opposed to grace and the Gospel.
    7. That the Sabbath commandment can rightly be BENT by man-made-tradition to point to week-day-1 after the cross.

    I agree with 6 out of 7 as listed above - and yet many who post against God's TEN commandments object to all of the points listed above. And sometimes they will even go on to complain that so many of the points above are in agreement with my position and opposed to the war-against-the-Ten-Commandments position.


    ===============================


    If you claim that you agree with the 7 point list, or affirms the BCoF - then you are someone that DHK seems to question as even existing here at all on the BB. (based on some of his posts)



    Indeed - the Baptists supporting that document claim that the Sabbath commandment is binding on all people from Eden to the cross and was given by God as pertaining to the 7th day of the week. And that it is "changed" (as point 7 states in my list) to point to week-day-1.

    I agree with them on 6 of their 7 points.

    Everyone has admitted that I do not agree with them on that 7th point.

    Some here are at war with all 7 points as DHK illustrates.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #13 BobRyan, Jan 24, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 24, 2015
  14. BobRyan

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    And yet the Westminster Confession of Faith reads almost identically to the "Baptist Confession of Faith" in sections 19 and 22.

    I find it hard to believe that Baptists here at BB would reject the "Baptist Confession of Faith" but accept only the "Westminster Confession of Faith"
     
  15. Salty

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    The Sabbath is STILL on Friday night/Saturday

    One thing (of many) I do agree with DHK - the New Testament does not require the observance of Saturday.
     
  16. DHK

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    Most of them, like the Westminster, are Calvinistic. For that reason many of us disagree with them. Here is a small portion of the Westminster:
    I could not agree with this. And the others are quite similar in nature.
     
  17. BobRyan

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    Is this your way of saying you are in opposition to all 7 points that the BCoF makes??

    That you agree with some of the points? But not all??

    DHK admits that a number of people agree with the Westminster Confession of Faith such as Icon...
     
  18. Salty

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    Which BCoF?

    The London COF has 32 main points
    and the NH COF has 18 main points

    and I agree with the vast majority of them.

    (and congratulations on your last answer -with using 50 words or less.)
     
  19. DHK

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    Why do you misrepresent what I said. If you are going to "quote" me, then use exact quotes. This is what I said:
    In fact, that is what a good many of the Presbyterians use.
     
  20. BobRyan

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    The OP includes the link.

    Your own prior post above "includes the link".

    Though you finally do admit it - do you not find it odd that there is so much by way of timid posting when it comes to actually admitting that one agrees with the BCoF and specifically the section 19 quoted in the OP??

    in Christ,

    Bob
     

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