Gods View of Lost Man

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by preacher4truth, Jun 30, 2011.

  1. preacher4truth

    preacher4truth
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    It has been argued on BB that "But how can God be just and not consider what he sees in man?"

    This statement is made in context of election, and of God seeing good in man. According to this statement, we are looked upon by God, and election becomes conditional upon "what he sees in man." It is concluded that then each man will be judged by his works. This was said to specifically deny unconditional election, and worded to prove election is conditional, or that unconditional election is wrong, or both, and that our works sway Him, and that by this it proves God is just. How could it be otherwise is the arguments platform.

    What do the Scriptures teach, and where does this above teaching stem from, and from whose notable theological stance? Has anyone else in the history of the church taught this?

    When we read Scripture we see that in fact lost man is under condemnation; He is under view of God in these ways: "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him." John 3:36, also Ephesians 2:3

    That his works are wicked and evil. Colossians 1:21; John 2:25

    That he or she, again, abides under Gods wrath. Ephesians 5:6; Colossians 3:6; Romans 1:18

    That there is nothing in man that merited or earned election. Nothing in Scriptures supports that man earned it by a god who views man in the quotes above in the opening OP.

    I've not seen this God in the Scriptures.

    That election is based upon Gods mercy alone, and not upon what man has merited or has done is a Scriptural tenet. At least I thought it was.

    God does love the world, but this love was unmerited, not due to one thing in man, but all due to Gods Grace and Mercy. In other words we got what we didn't deserve or merit, or, Grace, and we escaped what we did deserve, or Mercy.

    What do you all think of this? Am I wrong and unscriptural in how I'm using Scripture to show Gods view (by way of warning) upon man, that His wrath is upon them, that they are in condemnation &c...or is the view that in election God "justly" considers our works, and thus, it is no longer unconditional that He chooses us, but conditioned.

    I believe we were chosen by Grace unconditonally and totally apart from anything we have done, then He in choosing us imparts to us all the things needed to make us alive and bring us into His Kingdom.

    - Grace and Peace
     
  2. JesusFan

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    How did god choose elect Abraham and isreal?

    Did he see something good in a pagan, someone whose mind was seeking God, who decided to believe in him by faith?
    Was jewish race selected because of might brains wealth?

    NONE of the above

    God selected Abram period to fulfill His Plans and purposes
    Ditto Isreal

    Jesus picked the Apostles, did they seek him out?

    Think answer ids right there for those willing to humble themselves and see that "its all of God, so that He gets the glory and shares it with no one!"

    Think Ephesians Chapter 1 pretty much sums up as God contarsts what we can do in this compared to what He can do!
     
    #2 JesusFan, Jun 30, 2011
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  3. preacher4truth

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    Exactly. And this is how He chooses each of us.

    He chose Abram (before he was "Abraham") in Genesis 12, and this is prevenient Grace (salvation) which led to chapter 15, (or justification by faith.)

    1 Thessalonians 1:4.
     
  4. revmwc

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    Because of God's foreknowledge of the decisions HE knew we made He predstined those who would believe (us) to be the children of God. It is very clear salvation comes to those who call upon the name of the Lord, by Faith we are saved it is God's gracious gift.
    He didn't determine who would or would not be saved by watching them we weren't even around When He Presdetinated us to be Children of God but God knew the choice we would make before we were ever born. Because God foreknew we would choose to accept Christ HE predestined us based on that foreknowledge. Grace saves us unconditionally and that Grace comes by Faith in Christ, Ephesians 2: 8 & 9 For by GRACE we ARE SAVED through FAITH and that not of yourself it (salvation) is the GIFT of God (GRACE) not of works lest anyman should boast. Really clear on Soteriology.

    Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
    30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified
    Real clear because of His FOREKNOWLEDGE he PREDESTINATED.
    Ephesians 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
    5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

    He knew us before the world was formed, He knew what choices we would make and predestinated us to be the adopted Children of God.

    Really, Really clear.
     
  5. jbh28

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    And thanks be to God that he didn't keep this. Otherwise, he would have chosen no one. If God's choice of me rests on me choosing him, I'm in big, big trouble! The problem with all this is that all those passages of foreknowledge never, ever say that it's foreknowledge of faith. Never does it say it's foreknowledge of me choosing him.
     
  6. preacher4truth

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    Yes. I agree. If it were thus, then it were based upon us, and these things need thought through, this is no attack. It is not based upon the things aforementioned at all.

    He did the choosing, and it was conditioned upon absolutely nothing but His Grace. This is why we glorify God, as undeserving sinners in awe of His Grace.
     
  7. JesusFan

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    Isn't the implication made that God "foreknew" in a personal way those saved? that in a way consistent with Him determing causing it to come to pass?

    NOT based on Him 'seeing" who would decide for jesus but determing by Act of His Will who would know jesus? Personal/Individual election here implied?
     
  8. Skandelon

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    No, the implication is that God foreknew and preplanned to bring salvation to the Gentiles from the beginning, a mystery just being made known to the people of that time. That is the big issue of their day. Paul is not debating Cal vs. Arm theology, he is debating Jew vs Gentile theology. People don't believe the Gentiles were chosen of God and even the Jews who accept it are trying to make them into Jews first. This is what Paul is combating. He does so be continually writing to his predominately Gentile congregations and reminding them they are chosen of God and beloved of God from the beginning....and that God has determined to adopt all those who believe upon him, regardless of their nationality. Calvinists make the mistake of reading an intent into Paul's teaching that was not there, IMO.

    BTW, we don't all believe in the "foresight faith" view promoted earlier. Frankly, I think that view is inane.

    If so, then why use the word "foreknow" rather than the word "predetermine?" If for God to foreknow something means the same as His active predetermining it, then what is the distinction in the author's choice of that word rather than the other?
     
  9. quantumfaith

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    Amen!!!:thumbs::thumbs: A very keen and insightful observation.
     
  10. Dr. Bob

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    I would think by now everyone would know that "fore-knowing" is NOT "fore-seeing" (as some would try to warp it)

    God did not look ahead and see we would be the good ones, the one to believe and seek him, the ones worthy of grace. That is blashemous.

    God fore-knew me (to "know" is an intimate relationship with) in eternity past when He chose to show grace in the most awesome way - to save a rebel and God-hater like me and regenerate me.

    Without God working in the heart of a man, to change his very nature, the Bible is clear how "lost" man is. Man cannot come, call, seek, want, will, wish, believe, repent, trust, turn, et al. Man is so completely incapable that God summarizes his soul by saying even the "right" things a man might do are filthy rags to God.

    The precious doctrine of man's complete inability and God's complete ability in salvation is testimony and praise to the glory of His grace.
     
  11. Skandelon

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    I agree!!! Likewise, can you also agree that "fore-knowing" is not "predetermining" (as some would try to warp it)?
     
  12. convicted1

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    Here is how I see how God sees lost man. Waaaay back before He made the earth, and all its inhabitants, He saw that we would fall, and in that fall, there was no way possible for us to return unto Him. It's like in Luke ch. 16, the "great gulf" that seperated the rich man from the paradise he saw Father Abraham in. I believe that this great gulf is "sin", and that when Jesus died on the cross, and arose on the thrid morning, He built a "Bridge" that spanned the "great gulf", and paved it with His blood. Now, those who put their trust in Him, He will place them on this "Bridge", that will lead them home. Those who do not put their trust in Him will never walk therein.

    Here is some scriptural proof:

    Job 28:7 There is a path which no fowl knoweth, and which the vulture's eye hath not seen:

    8 The lion's whelps have not trodden it, nor the fierce lion passed by it.

    So, it is impossible for anyone to climb to get on this road, but must be placed there by God Almighty. We can not earn this, but we must be drawn first by Him, and those who choose to obey, will be placed on this "Highway of Holiness", Jesus being the "Bridge" we walk upon. Jesus stated He was the way, the truth and the life.

    i am I AM's!!

    Willis
     
  13. convicted1

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    I used to believe this, but after reading what others stated on here, over time, I saw I was in error. You need to study this a lot more, Brother. This puts us putting "something" extra in the salvation equation; that we had something to do with our salvation. I am not saying you believe it that way, but this form of doctrine "fringes" on this very thing.
     
  14. convicted1

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    Well, Brother P4T, I don't know how God sees other lost men, but I know what He saw in one lost man. He saw a man lost, ruined, and undone, destined for a devil's hell. He showed this lost man that He had sent His very best, His Son, to die for that lost man on a cross at Calvary. He reached out to this lost man, and gave him the gift of faith(boy, have we been down this road a time or two?), that helped him to put his trust in Him. Then, He set up a Godly sorrow in that lost man's life, and it led him down a road of repentance. When this lost man cried out from the very depths of their broken heart, He saved him from his sins, put His Spirit in him, gave him a drink of living water, and baptized his soul in the blood of the Lamb. He put a long, white robe on him, put new shoes on his feet; IOW, He dressed him to the "nines". This lost man is no longer lost, but saved by His grace!! This lost man I am talking about? You guessed it; it was me!!

    The reason why I stated I don't know how God sees other lost men, is because I truly don't know beyond a doubt. I believe in FW, but I always ask God to show me if I have this right. I don't want to be wrong, but I want to know all I can about Him. I believe that God sees other lost men the same way He saw me, and drew them, and for whatever reason, they refused to come. But like I said, I could be wrong. I do know what He saw when He saw me lost. He saw someone who didn't care about anyone but number 1, and yet, He chose to draw me. You talk about AMAZING GRACE!!! Praise His sweet name!! I love Him, because He first loved me, and sent His Son to die for a wretch like me!! That's shoutin' ground right there!! :thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:

    i am I AM's!!

    Willis
     
    #14 convicted1, Jul 1, 2011
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  15. revmwc

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    So what you are saying is noone was saved until Abraham was called out and the Jewish nation established, since all were men and neither Jew nor Gentile existed until god called Abraham. So Enoch was not translated to be with God by this view. The Jews really didn't have a Gentile court in the temple for the Gentile converts.
     
  16. revmwc

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    So then what did He have foreknowledge of? He knew us, He knew our hearts, He knew what we would do and the choices we would make. If that is not what He had foreknowledge of then what was it?
     
  17. revmwc

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    It tells us what God knew about us from the start, He knew you would sin and exactly what sins you would commit, He knew what your besetting sin would be, so does that mean He had something to do with our commiting sin, not in anyway. He knew us before the foundation of the world, what does it mean to know us?
     
  18. preacher4truth

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    Amen Dr. Bob

    This error pops up among those who believe it when they see verses about seeking God, or that we are given "Law" to keep, and say, "see, we can do it."

    This is a grave mistake.

    No, we can't do it, and that is the entire point, these things given to show we are afar off, that we are incapable, to point out our sin nature, which really shouldn't be too difficult to discover.
     
  19. preacher4truth

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    I get what you're saying. My point in the OP is that God does't look at us, as is suggested, and according to our good things, decide to elect us accordingly.

    That's nonsense.

    The lost remain under wrath until saved. That He saves us is unconditional to anything about us or what we have done.
     
  20. preacher4truth

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    Yes. More study on this would help, many of us believed this, but later are convinced it isn't sound teaching.
     

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