God's will can never be limited nor frustrated

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by UMP, Aug 4, 2004.

  1. UMP

    UMP
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    "Yes, they turned back and tempted God, and limited the Holy One of Israel."
    This passage from Psalm 78:41 has been twisted by many to support the idea that mankind has an autonomy which God cannot violate and that man, therefore, has the ability to "limit" God's interactions with His creation. Man has a "sacred free will" which God can not or will not violate.
    Ironically, however, the context of the seventy-eighth Psalm makes it clear that the "limiting" of God of which Israel is being accused is actually in their perception of God and their challenges to Him. For instance, we read in the nineteenth verse that Istael "spake against God; they said, can God furnish a table in the wilderness?" Likewise, we read of their brazen questioning in verse twenty: "Behold, he smote the rock, that the waters gushed out, and the streams overflowed; can he give bread also? can he provide flesh for his people?" Israel sinned by questioning God's abililty to provide for them and by limiting Him in their descriptions of Him. As the following verse 42 (and, in fact, the rest of the chapter) reminds us, this came about because they had forgotten the great things that God had done for them in the past.
    Rather than bowing to Him as the sovereign Lord Who does His will in the army of heaven and among the inhabitants of the earth, Who will do all His pleasure, working all things after the council of His own will, none being able to stay His hand (Da 4:34,35; Is 46:10; Ep 1:11), the Israelites were challenging His power, questioning His sovereignty, and disregarding the miracles that He had already shown them. They were like the atheist of today who audaciously declares, "God, I will believe on you if you will just cause this table to levitate, or if you will just give me some other miraculous sign" As if God has nothing better to do than prove His existance to rebellious unbelievers or submit Himself to the beck and call of the disgruntled Israelites!
    Sadly, many people make the same limiting statements about God today, trying to chalk out a silhouette for Him that will appeal to their own reason or desires. However, God will not be boxed up, painted in, put down, or searched out by man's mind or will. As Proverbs 19:21 reminds us, "There are many devices in a man's heart; nevertheless the counsel of the LORD, that shall stand." Thankfully, as the last verse of our Psalm 78 reminds us, God is not, even by our rebellion, limited in His dealings with man, for "He fed them according to the integrity (completeness, perfection) of his heart; and guided them by the skilfulness of his hands." (78:72) He is able to overcome man's plans, man's will, and the many devices of man's heart.

    Written by Justin Huffman.
     
  2. ILUVLIGHT

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    Hi Ump;
    All coins have two sides. Defending God's Sovereignty is admirable, but a defense that just as well limits God from giving man a freewill. This is doing the same. The limiting of God on what He can and can't do.
    I agree God is Sovereign. He is the creator of all things and if He doesn't like it and it was His will He could wipe out man and start all over again. On His own man has no say unless it was given to Him.
    Being able to trump God however, is not what Arminians are trying to relate to the Calvinist IMO.
    I believe that God created all humans in his likeness. God has a freewill he can do what He likes, and because we are created in His likeness we have freewill as well to chose whom we follow.
    Calvinism says that man lost his freewill when Adam fell. The problem is that scripture doesn't say that. This is only an assumption.
    If man has no will to choose who he will follow then why does the Bible say that the Jews went a whoring after other gods? If man has no freewill to choose then why do we all still sin? If man cannot choose then why does the Lord give us so many choices in his word. Here are just a
    few examples;.
    Deu 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:


    Luk 10:41 And Jesus answered and said unto her, Martha, Martha, thou art careful and troubled about many things:
    Luk 10:42 But one thing is needful: and Mary hath chosen that good part, which shall not be taken away from her.

    We are invited to come to Christ to make that choice as Martha did;

    Mat 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
    Mat 11:29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
    Mat 11:30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

    Wasn't Christ offering the rich man a chance for Salvation in this next verse?
    Mat 19:21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.

    The rich man went away because of his wealth that he loved so much was more than he was willing to give up.

    I've placed my trust in Christ. I still trust Him and really only Him.

    May God Bless You;
    Mike [​IMG]
     
  3. UMP

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    ILUVLIGHT writes:
    "Wasn't Christ offering the rich man a chance for Salvation in this next verse?
    Mat 19:21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me."

    Have you sold everything you have and given it all to the poor? Don't tell me that's not what the verse means or say that you would be a poor steward of what God has given you if you sold everything and gave it to the poor. My interpretation of that verse simply exemplifies the IMPOSSIBILITY of saving yourself. There is NOTHING you can do, or what you could do would never be enough, it's all of God.
    BTW- I trust in Christ too, and Him only.
     
  4. natters

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    God's will can never be frustrated? I have a question: 1 Thess 4:3 says it is "the will of God" that we "abstain from fornication". If it is God's will to abstain from fornication, does't committing fornication go against God's will?
     
  5. UMP

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    I would call that sin. I should change the word "will" to the word "purpose" and it will make more sense.
     
  6. npetreley

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    Strictly speaking, that's not what Calvinism asserts. Spiritual death results in man's current condition, which is that he is in bondage to his sinful nature. A few exceptions notwithstanding, man freely wills what his heart desires. So in a sense, man still has "free will". But his heart ONLY desires what a spiritually dead heart desires.

    What I mean by "a few exceptions" are: 1. The obvious change in a man's heart when God regenerates him. 2. When God so desires, he puts it into the heart of a man (spiritually dead or spiritually alive) to do something he wouldn't normally want to do. If you want Biblical examples, I'll be glad to provide them.
     
  7. natters

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    I would call it sin too, and thus my question. It says "the will of God". Why should we change it to "purpose"?
     
  8. UMP

    UMP
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    I meant, change the title of this thread, which I started. "Gods "purpose" cannot be limited nor frustrated."
     
  9. natters

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    So you believe God's "purpose" cannot be frustrated, but his "will" can? What's the difference?
     
  10. UMP

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    I said "perhaps" it would make more sense. I am not God, nor do I understand His mind. I do believe the bible though and come to the conclusion that Gods purpose or will or whatever you want to call it, cannot be frustrated. In allowing Adam and Eve to sin, why did he let them sin? I have no idea, however, His purpose was and never will be frustrated. It is not in His character. Perhaps there is no difference in the word "will" or "purpose". If that be so, I stand by my statement, Gods will\purpose cannot be frustrated or limited. It is impossible.
     
  11. natters

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    Jer 36:3 It may be that the house of Judah will hear all the evil which I purpose to do unto them; that they may return every man from his evil way; that I may forgive their iniquity and their sin.

    Is this not an example of God's purpose (God's planned actions on Judah) being "frustrated" if they turn from evil? What is God's purpose here, to punish them or forgive them? Sorry for the questions, but I don't understand your position nor the difference between purpose and will.
     
  12. ILUVLIGHT

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    Hi Ump;
    When I first believed in Christ I was as poor as a church mouse. My father always made sure that I knew that I didn't own a thing. Everything in our family was shared by the rest even if it was money I'd made on my own. We were always taught to share what we had. My Parents also made sure that I knew we were to give. That it is a commandment from God and not only that we are to do it cheerfully. So I have to say that I didn't own anything to sell when I was saved. What about today? Would I sell everything I have if I knew it was God's will and give the money to the poor. Being raised the way that I was I still count everything as my Fathers in Heaven. If He directed my path to do so I would. There is nothing we should ever refuse to God purposes. I know that what ever He requires of me of my wealth he will reward me many times over for, and like I said I trust Him. When you don't look at everything in your possession as yours then you are only the care taker. This is what being a good steward is. Men who think they own what they have are overlooking the blessings of God.
    To be with Christ is so important to me that I would gladly lay down my life for Him. I know just Like st.Paul to die is gain.
    I owe no man anything. The Job God provided me with provides me with a place to live and even pays the utilities. The car I paid cash for. It's not new but hey I get around. I even bought this computer at a yard sale right after I moved here. I don't believe in debt I see enough of my employers debt to do me just fine. After all when you owe another man You're his slave.
    I don't horde money, I use it that is what money is for. As far as wealth is concerned I'm very wealthy. I have a Father in Heaven who gives me the desires of my heart. The reason I'm wealthy is not because of lust for mammon but because He bless me with what I need. No I'm not a millionaire nor do I wish to be. but wealthy I am because God has seen to it that I have what I need.
    Success is not in what wealth you collect. Success is living for Jesus Christ.
    Would you sell all that you have to follow Christ?
    May God Bless You;
    Mike [​IMG]
     
  13. ILUVLIGHT

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    Hi Nick;
    No doubt you can provide examples of mens hearts changing. This still doesn't give Calvinist the right to assume that man is regenerated before he believes. The Bible doesn't state this at all. Yet many times I've heard Calvinist claim Sola Scriptura. This is not Sola Scriptura.
    A few question for you:
    Why did God have to harden pharoahs heart ? Was it already a heart of flesh? Was God worried that he might believe and let the people go to soon? Just seems to me that if he was totally depraved already he would have refused with out any help from God. After all a totally depraved man can't do anything to please God. Even though Pharoah did in the end. Thus pleasing God.
    My point is that Total depravity is also not Sola Scriptura but an assumption.
    As far as being limited God is limited by Calvinist in atonement. Christ died for the entire world yet Calvinist will sit and argue the meaning of the word "world" that this doesn't mean everyone. It is God's will that all come to Him. All does mean all while it is true that not all do, but that's because of choice which is the will of God for man to have. We are invited to come to Him but some have claimed that a plain invitation isn't really an invitation and never finish the discussion and won't return to it. I wonder why. I can give you examples of choices made by people in the Bible for Christ. Yet you refuse this as well.
    May God bless You;
    Mike [​IMG]
     
  14. npetreley

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    No, what I was referring to were examples of God explicitly manipulating men's hearts. I'm talking about verses such as "God put it into his heart to...such and such". The verses explicitly say that what the person did, he did because God had put it into his heart to do it, not because he chose to do it of his own free will.

    Personally, I wouldn't say man was regenerated before he believes, but that man is regenerated and believes. The "before" part is technically correct, but it is like saying God makes a blind person see. Yes, God has to restore a man's sight before he can see, but at the very moment the man has sight, he sees. One is the immediate consequence of the other.

    As for there being no such scripture, you are incorrect. But I and others have already dealt with this in other threads, so I won't rehash what's already been said.

    Pharaoh never had a heart of flesh. You are assuming that God hardens a heart in order to prevent that person from being saved. That is not at all the case with Pharaoh. God hardened Pharaoh's heart in order to bring about a specific outcome -- that is, that by the time Pharaoh let God's people go, Pharaoh would be so driven to frustration that he would allow the people to plunder Egypt in the process. He also hardened Pharaoh's heart so that Pharaoh would change his mind YET AGAIN and go after the Jews after they left -- so that God could display His mighty power in the parting of the Red Sea, and then use the Red Sea to destroy their enemies.

    Psalm 14, Psalm 53, Romans 3: The LORD looks down from heaven upon the children of men, To see if there are any who understand, who seek God. They have all turned aside, They have together become corrupt; There is none who does good, No, not one.

    1 Cor2:14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

    John 6:44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.

    John 6:65 And He said, "Therefore I have said to you [in reference to John 6:44] that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father."
     
  15. BobRyan

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    God's Will was to give the Angels free will and out of that - to receive their Worship. But that "cost" him Lucifer and then 1/3 of the Angels as they exercised their free will - to rebel against their creator.

    (Though some Calvinist here supposed that maybe God "made them" rebel against Him - I just don't think that view represents very many Calvinists).

    He gives the same to Adam and Eve - and they choose sin.

    Then He supernaturally draws ALL mankind unto Him (thus enabling the choice that TD disables -- EVEN by Calvinist standards) and what does He get??? The "FEW" of Matt 7. And loses the MANY of the Matt 7 to the Lake of Fire.

    The reader is impressed with God's Sovereign choice to sacrifice for "Free Will".

    IN Christ,

    Bob
     
  16. npetreley

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    That is rather unimpressive, isn't it? What does it say about a god who leaves it up to man's choice to come to him, draws ALL men to himself, and gets only a few? The same God who created all things and says that not even a sparrow falls to the ground apart from His will - gets a worse reaction from His audience than a tone-deaf karaoke singer.

    What it says to me is that I can do a better job of drawing flies than the Arminian/Pelagian god can draw men.

    This gives me a clue that the Arminian/Pelagian interpetation has an error in it somewhere.
     
  17. UMP

    UMP
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    ILUVLIGHT,
    You missed my point. All the things you have written are GREAT and admirable. Heaven is not attained by works. That is my interpretation of the conversation between the rich man and Jesus.
     
  18. UMP

    UMP
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    Natters, perhaps the following will help answer your question??

    The eternal purpose, or predestination of God extends to all of God's works in natural and spiritual creation causatively, efficiently and effectually, and to sin and wickedness permissibly. Not that God purposed sin and wickedness, but that He purposed to allow or to suffer man to sin. There are some things that God does not suffer, "He shall never suffer the righteous to be moved." Psalms 55: 22. David would have us to know, though we forsake His law and walk not in His judgements, "Nevertheless my loving kindness will 1 not utterly take from him, nor suffer my faithfulness to fail." Psalms 89: 30-33. The above Scriptures evidently belong to God's immutable and efficient purposes. There are things however that God suffers. The devils that entered into the Gadarene asked to be permitted or allowed to enter a herd of swine. "And there was there an herd of many swine feeding on the mountain: and they besought Him that He would suffer them to enter into them, and He suffered them." Luke 8: 32. In speaking of the Lord's national people Luke said: "And about the time of forty years suffered He their manners in the wilderness." Acts 13: 18. And concerning the same people the same writer says again, "Who in time past suffered all nations to walk in their own ways." Acts 14: 16. The last texts as I understand belong to God's permissive decrees, and if this distinction had been observed by all who have preached or wrote on the subject, my opinion is all would have been peace so far as the controversy on predestination is concerned. The works of God in the creation of the world in six days, and in the salvation of sinners was and is so systematically arranged that we are forced to the belief that God works according to a systematic, accurate, and therefore a predetermined plan. The works of God are the absolute, unavoidable and undeniable results of His predestination. He works all things according to a fixed and immutable determination of His own unchanging and unfrustrable will. God's works and commandments are in perfect harmony with His purpose. The purposes of God are wise and good and therefore cannot produce opposite kinds of works.

    Elder J.S. Newman 1903, Texas.
     
  19. Me2

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    Did Jesus teach us directly the things of God. No. He said its sorta, kinda, like.

    he spoke to carnal man, in a carnal language, using carnal means of communications.

    and God calls this "foolishness".

    God only speaks to individuals independently in spiritual language. it non audible.

    we can call it revelation.

    revelations of wisdom.
    revelations of understanding.
    revelations of knowledge.

    we just cant pick up a carnal book. read carnal words using carnal understanding. and get a spiritual message from God other than one that has a carnal meaning.

    How we read our bible is that we receive an independent revealation of wisdom, understanding and knowledge from God himself . then pick up the bible and find others who have put their own carnal words to what their conclusions were of the Gods spiritual revelations.

    a corresponding carnal witness of their own carnal conclusions that can or cannot correspond to our own carnal conclusions.

    Yet we continually hear..those who hear and see the message. wheres the preacher? have you heard the word brother?

    this is called foolishness thinking man has anything to do with the propagation of Gods spiritual message. even if the bible states to go and preach and study.

    Its called foolishness without first receiving a personal revelation from God himself!

    How do people hear and see?. they first receive THE righteous spirit capable of hearing and seeing Gods spiritual message. is it audible?..NOPE! it has to be assimilated from our mind of Christ! yet we still communicate with our carnal language with our carnal understanding with our carnal definitions.

    what do people hear when they hear preachers preaching.. a carnal message!

    God cannot be frustrated with this method of individuals being regulated of communicating within themselves for he established it methods. he makes it impossible for two people to speak of God without his regulating the spiritual truth and error.

    1Co 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

    1Co 1:20 Where [is] the wise? where [is] the scribe? where [is] the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?

    1Co 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

    1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.

    1Co 3:19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.
    1Co 3:20 And again, The Lord knoweth the thoughts of the wise, that they are vain.
    1Co 3:21 Therefore let no man glory in men. For all things are yours;


    so believe what?.. well our spirit hears the spiritual message spoken of directly by the father to the son, within us, while us humans are mearly overhearing the message with our carnal minds.... amen!

    If I havent received the revelation from the father to my spirit within me concerning the wisdom, the understanding, the knowledge to complete the message.
    I will not open my mouth to try to repeat nor communicate what I dont understand to be true.

    I just dont make it up or say what I think sounds good. it either right or wrong. truth or error. and its not a mixture of the two.

    Luk 6:43 For a good tree bringeth not forth corrupt fruit; neither doth a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
    Luk 6:44 For every tree is known by his own fruit. For of thorns men do not gather figs, nor of a bramble bush gather they grapes.

    fruit being wisdom,understanding and knowledge.
    either its all truth or all error.
    either the message is of God, or of mans imaginations.

    either you can hear and see Gods spiritual message. or you dont. its that simple.

    Me2
     
  20. ILUVLIGHT

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    Hi Nick;
    Yes God does Motivate some but the reason for this manipulation (as you call it) is to bring certain necessary events about. In every case man usually does what God wants. This is because God knows what it will take to get certain men to react the way He wants them to. God does work in our lives saved or not. The same rain falls on both evil and Christian alike. But your doctrine of being unable to respond without regeneration is still unbiblical.
    All who are heavy laden with sin are invited to come to Him Matt 11:28 He certainly doesn't give His rest to the rebels. Why invite you if you are already predestined to come to Him.
    Taking the word regeneration and saying that it means anything else other than being saved is ridiculous. Being Being born again is what being saved is. Somehow Calvin and Augustine got mixed up when they thought that this word meant to get a heart of flesh. The heart of flesh is given to man after accepting Christ as Savior. We can only accept Christ like little children trusting him with the trust of a child. Men are able to do this from birth especially while they are still children.

    This is saying you agree with me but regeneration is the opening of men's eyes. That would mean that this next verse isn't so;

    Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
    Not to sound just plain ornery but all three of these passages are about what a fool has said in his heart.

    If what this fool has said is true this would make my Lord and Savior's word a liar in Act 16:30 and let's not forget Marthas chioce in Luke 10:41-42. Better yet what about Nicodemus in Jn 3 How about the man Phillip talked to in the mans chariot

    It is not true that men do not seek God it is not true that men are totally depraved. It is not true that men are unable to understand the gospel message.

    If you honestly weigh the evidence you will see that the doctrines Calvinism isn't true. Neither are all the Arminians doctrines. Both have some truth, this is true but anything less than the whole truth is not truth at all. To arrive at truth we have to be able to discern what the word says without the doctrines of men.
    May God Bless You;
    Mike [​IMG]
     

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