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Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Judith, Jul 17, 2014.
Does God always get His will?
In the eternal, yes. In the temporal, no. Man cannot thwart God's plan, but man can refuse to be a participant in it.
Good answer, I agree.
The Bible distinguishes between God's sovereign will of purpose, which no creature can overrule (Dan. 4; Isa. 46:9-11; Rom. 8:28-30) and God's revealed will in scriptures which is always being overruled by demons and men at all times somewhere on earth.
Think that He has a determinitive Will, that ALWAYS gets done as he wills, but also he has a permissive will that allows for us to make by our own choosing sinful decisions and practices!
You think rightly! :thumbsup:
And that we are to look for His Second Coming, as that is when God intervenes into this Earth to make sure "thy Kingdom come, that Will get done on earth as it now is in heaven!"
What is permissive will?
It is, simply, God's refusal to interfere in our own stupid decisions. :laugh:
So His will is to allow us to sin or choose, correct? If so that would not be a permissive will. That would be a perfect will.
That would make Him the author of Hitler and the camps thought, wouldn't it?
No, His perfect will would be for X to happen. In His permissive will, we choose Y.
It is my contention that faith is nothing without doubt. Trust doesn't really exist without the question "Why?" Many of us have been taught that always, in all things, and all situations God’s will is being perfectly expressed. That simply isn't true.
Why? Because people have a choice. People can choose to reject God’s perfect will and unfortunately, because we live interconnected with one another other, peoples’ rejection of God’s perfect will have an effect on our lives. God is perfect and He has a perfect will but that does not negate good things happening to bad people and bad things happening to good people. This all happens because of His permissive will.
In Romans 9 we find a lesson on God’s permissive will. God allows people to choose obedience to Him. That is what makes it obedience. If we didn’t have a choice it would be something else. But there is an alternative to living out God’s will on earth. When we operate outside of God’s will, or perfect plan for our lives, we are operating in His permissive will. He will permit you to choose, He will permit you to make wrong choices, and He will permit you to suffer the consequences. Sometimes the consequence is that someone else suffers because our disobedience to God’s will affects their life.
Is it fair that a child’s life is affected by their parents decisions? Not really. Is it fair that one person’s decision to drive drunk affects a whole family when a father is killed in an accident? Not really. Then again, show me where God promised fairness in this existence?
If God eliminated the choice between obedience and disobedience, He would also be eliminating love and all expressions of it. So God allows people to choose. What Romans 8 tells us is that the ability to choose and people choosing to turn their back on God’s perfect will that ultimately show how valuable God’s perfect will is.
I do not believe that God has a permissive will, only a perfect will which includes freedom for His creation to choose His will sometimes called free will. It is like going into the mall. They have a perfect will for me to buy things. They do not have a permissive will for me to take things without paying. Taking things without paying goes against their will and has nothing to do with permissiveness on their part. The same with God. God does not have a permissive will. Just a perfect will that is violated. That is why we pray the disciples/Lord's prayer. We need to pray for His will to be done, the only will He has, perfect will.
Not sure what you mean by Author, but God puts men into authority according to scripture.
OK. No problem for me. I do believe He has both, for the reasons I've shared.
No response Judith???? If God has a "revealed will" (and he does, it is found revealed in the scriptures) then he has a "permissive will" as he certainly does permit man and demons to violate His revealed will.
However, the Scritpures are clear that God's sovereign will none can stop (Isa. 46:10-11; Dan. 4; Deut. 29:29; etc.)
I did answer but to another person. Both are His perfect will. God does not have a permissive will. Allowing us to choose is not permissive. Allowing us to choose is also His pefect will. The fact that we do not perfectly choose does not make it permissive on His part. It makes us rebellious and sinners when we choose anything except His will which is always perfect.
God permissive Will has been in effect every since the Fall of satan, and then Adam, and right now, h!e is awaiting the Second Coming of Jesus to have His perfect Will to get down on earth as in heaven!
Do you see the perfect Will of God being done on earth right now?
God does not have a permissive will. God has a will and it is stated many times. Men simply refuse to follow it. Consequently God does not always get His will.
I have not read this thread, so if this is redundant, sorry:
If God's will is to cause an outcome, because He is all powerful, nothing can prevent God from causing that outcome. However, if God's desire and purpose is to have people autonomously choose a course or path, then God can certainly cause that contingent outcome. This is not overruling God, this is God overruling men who believe in exhaustive determinism.