going to church 3 times a week

Sorry to come in late on this thread - I visit the board almost every day, but I can't remember seeng this thread before. (My fault, I'm sure).

I wonder if the whole question might hinge on that phrase "go to church"? The church isn't a building that we visit (whether it's once or a hundred times each week When we become Christians we are adopted into God's family. As somone else has already mentioned, the church is people. May I ask you a few questions? (But of course, I'm not prying into your business - if you don't want to answer that's fine). Are you a member of the church you are talking about, or do you just attend services? If you are a member (or perhaps even if your are not), have you ever mentioned to the pastor/elders/deacons the problem you find with the weeknight meetings? If you have, did they just ignore you?

 

For those of you who believe that a pastor has no right to call a member, even a deacon, if they miss church, how long does that extend? Can he call after 2 weeks? 3 weeks? 4 weeks? 6 months?

When does the church have the obligation or right to make sure it members show up?

 

My point was that the pastor shouldn't have to call. In most cases - the member should have let someone know why he/she wouldn't be there in advance. People in leadership positions need to get people to fill in for them, so I'm assuming if you just didn't show it was an emergency! Then you'd want someone calling . . .

Regular old members (that's not a slight) use no one calling as an excuse to leave churches. Isn't the call a role of outreach.

My mama got out of sorts and didn't go for a couple of months and the little lady in her class that had been calling when she was out didn't call and that put her more out of sorts. I was calling, but I didnt' count. Any way, when mother finally did go back (desorted or resorted), she found out that the little lady doing the calling had had a stroke. and was in need of some calling herself. I don't in anyway mean to make light of this, but it is two sided. We minister when we are there and contact those absent. We are ministered to when we are not there and are contacted.

I don't think the pastor has to bear the brunt of this. He's got enough to do. I'd expect someone else to call me first if I just didn't show up due to an emergency.

 

Now that's funny. I know I took a long time writing that post, but I didn't know that it was so long that it got kicked into the editing realm before I ever submitted it the first time.


mmmmmmmmm

 

I have this really neat idea to increase attendance on Sunday nights and Wednesdays.

Pay the members. No, let's do better than that. Let's pay everybody. I guarantee you people will come out of the woodwork to get to church.

It works wonders for the pastor and staff. They show up every time they're supposed to. Now if paying the pastor assures his presence on Sunday nights and Wednesdays, won't it work just as well for the rest of us?

Oh, wow, I'm really getting into this. Let's make the rewards greater for Wednesday than Sunday. Then we could have extra bucks for attending consecutive Sundays and Wednesday. Add to the incentive by making us start over at the bottom of the pay scale if we miss.

Can you see the possibilities? One could qualify for additional pay by driving the vans, teaching a class, serving on a committee (more committees, more money), singing in the choir (with extra rewards for actually attending choir practice).

My wife just proposed another idea. Instead of real money, give folks "church cash," which can be redeemed like coupons at the church store. Of course, you have to have a store, but that shouldn't be a problem.

A few other details remain to be worked out. Such as, where's the money coming from? Bake sales, car washes, chicken dinners would help. Requiring each member to tithe to be eligible for the rewards would also help. Might even fund the whole project. And of course the church will keep 10 per cent of the rewards it gives out--a great tool to teach tithing, eh?

If you think this is too crassly pragmatic, just remember, nothing should be off limits when it comes to putting people in the pews--particularly our own members.

 

That's great Tom, very funny. But how is it relevant here? Was that in response to my post?

 

If a pastor (keep it neutral) has to call, beg, create a guilt trip, threaten, etc, in the place of the Lord leading members to church, then, in case you cannot see it, then he has already lost the war. A pastor's job is to submit to the leadership of the Lord, as is each member. The pastor should be doing things that enhance an atmosphere of members coming because they are being lead by the Lord. If members are there because of some man made verbal message or some man made smoke and mirrors sales pitch (such as high attendence Sunday), then the local church has ceased to be a viable living entity, and either needs to disbanden or seek new leadership. It is that simple. Pot lucks and other type of fellowship are fine, but that is a byproduct of fellowship between those who want to be there because the Lord lead them there. Using food, recreation, as an attraction borders on heresy. In fact, why stop there, why not wild parties to attract people?

How about trying to have faith enough to rely on the Holy Spirit to take care of that problem?

 

Who said anything about begging, creating a guilt trip, threatening, etc.? I think you are confusing issues here.

My question is (and I hope you will answer it this time), at what point do you believe it is appropriate for a pastor to call on a church member who has not been attending services? And why do you draw the line there?

 

Actually, Pastor Larry, it was not intended to be a response to any one post. This thread started out asking for comment on a pastor who was getting onto people who don't attend on Sunday nights and Wednesdays. Some of the posters were just plain offended. It is relevant to the OP in that it directly speaks to a method of getting those "casual Christians" in the house that doesn't require the pastor to make anybody angry or uncomfortable.

Tongue in cheek, of course.

 

Ah ... I am with you. I thought it was funny. I just wasn't sure who it was to.

 

Mike, this is really good. I wouldn't necessarily call such efforts heresy, but your point is well made. I don't know about wild parties, but I read about a couple of churches which have Beer Night bible studies. I still think the best idea to attract people is to pay them. Preaching the pure gospel just ain't good enough, anymore. Relying on the Holy Spirit? Dream on.

 

If there is a church member who is lead by the Lord to be at your service (and as a pastor I would think you could tell the difference) and all of the sudden, he or she does not show up, I think it is appropriate to call them immediately to find out if they are ok and tell them you missed their presence.

That has NOTHING to do with using the telephone, verbal messages, gimics such as High Attendence day, food, recreation as tools to maintain church attendence, as tools for church growth, or as the basis of your ministry. I answered your question quite clearly.

Getting back to the first paragraph, if that person you just called does not come back after your first call, (and I am assuming a regular attender), lets throw the question back at you. How many times are you going to call before it ceases to be a call of concern and takes on the characteristics of taking the place of the leading of the Lord? That is my question and I hope you will answer it this time.

 

How about the Monday after he misses on Sunday? In my Baptist culture, Sunday School teachers (or outreach leaders) are encouraged to contact their absentees quickly. Like, Sunday afternoon.

But Pastor Larry, you can't win either way. You call, you're legalistic. You don't call, you obviously don't care about your flock.

 

This seems to be the first time you answered my question when you said "immediately."

But now you raise more questions: How would I (as a pastor) know if there is a church member led of the Lord to be at the service? How would I judge that, as opposed to the members who are not led of the Lord to be at a service?

You say that the telephone should not be used, or verbal messages. How else should we communicate with these members?

I agree that many gimmicks are inappropriate. I don't think everything you list is a gimmick. I think things such as dinners, special days, can be used to gain contacts for the church, to be a presence in a community. I see nothing wrong with that provided it is done under the biblical commands and philosophy. We have a Family Christmas Dinner every year that is a time to fellowship and we encourage people to invite family and friends. We have a program of music and a short message about Christ and Christmas and salvation. We are having a Mother Daughter Tea in a couple of weeks that will be a similar type function. We consider these are introductory events, a chance to make contact with people.

Here is what seems strange to me, ironic even: You seem to think it is wrong for a church to have food, high attendance days, recreation (even though there is no biblical command forbidding it) and you think it is okay for a member to not assemble with the church (even though there is a biblical command forbidding it). In other words, your forbid what the Bible does not while allowing that which the Bible forbids. Isn't that ironic?

I did not see this question before. The answer is, It all depends on a number of factors. Here, if a member does not attend church for 13 consecutive weeks, they are placed on an inactive list. If they do not resume attendance by the end of the year, they are removed from membership at the next annual congregational meeting.

The Lord does not lead people to drop out of the church or to be uninvolved in its ministry. So when a ministry leader misses, they are immediately called. Ministry leaders are expected to inform ahead of time when they will miss and to make arrangements for their ministry in their absence. In the case of an immediate problem (car wreck on the way, family member suddenly in hospital, unavoidable immediate work conflict), they should inform as soon as possible. That is the only appropriate way to handle it. If they are making a habit of missing, they will be asked to step aside from their ministry leadership until they can be faithful to it. Again, leadership has requirements, and if you can't be there, you can't lead.

As for calling people, I generally don't call on the first absence (unless they are a ministry leader). Members will generally be called after the second week, though in such cases, I am rarely the first one to call them. All are contacted prior to four weeks of consecutive absence. Visitors is different. Usually I will calll a visitor after their first visit to thank them for coming and ask if there are any questions. That is trying to build a relationship with them. With a visitor that has been coming for a while that misses, I will call them after a couple of weeks of absence.

As for how many times I will call, again it depends on a number of factors including their history and receptivity to the calls. There have been people that I don't call anymore because they are not receptive or show no interest.

It's not really the pastor's job to do this. It is the member's job to do this. Someone else should be making these calls. The people that they are close to in the church should call them, and make the contact.

So for me, it's really a "play by ear" kind of situation.

But the bottom line is that membership means something. And it has fallen on hard times in this individualisitic culture that thinks every thing revolves around personal schedule and personal convenience. Mark Dever at Capitol Hill Baptist Church and www.9marks.org has some great stuff on this. We would do well to recapture a vigorous and vibrant church membership.

 

You are not that thick headed. You have got to have some form of education to be a pastor. I never said one should not attend church. On the other side of your accusation, you are quite off the mark. Not only does the Bible not condone such activities to draw people to the Lord, it is quite adamant about using worldly things to do such.

You seem very confused. Fellowship and all the things you have listed above are good for fellowship. Fellowship is between believers. It is part of the Christian life. It is very edifying. If a non believer is there, that is great. Using such things as an outreach tool is ridiculous.

Another point above, you say as a pastor you cannot tell if they are there because the Lord has lead them there. Knowing your flock, dont you think you have a good idea? And common sense always goes a long way. Why would someone come to church Sunday after Sunday if not lead by the Lord in most cases? If I were not a Christian being lead by the Lord, I certainly do not think I would spend my time there. I am sure there are a few who think of it as a social club, but not many. There are too many other outlets.

While not knowing your church constitution or by laws, if they are like most, you dont ask someone to step aside. The congregation elected them, and the congregation asks them to step aside. The procedure is spelled out in every constitution.

As for your comment about the telephone, again, the same mistake. I said it was not a device to badger someone to attend. Hey, its your church, you run it as you see fit.

 

It seems that your position here is that going to church is an optional thing. I am not thick headed. Just trying to recall what you have been arguing for here.

You are confusing things. I am quite adamant that we not use worldly things to draw people to the Lord. Dinners, invitations, special services, are not worldly, at least not by the Bible's definition of worldly that I can find. I don't think the Bible prescribes these things. This would actually be an interesting conversation to see exactly what you mean here. I would be curious to find out exactly what you think "worldly" means in outreach.

Perhaps your "seem inspector" needs recalibrated. I am not confused in the least.

Based on what? I am not aware of any place the Bible makes this distinction. Furthermore, I think these things can serve dual purposes.

Nope. I am not prophet. I know what people tell me and sometimes what they show me with their lives. They may be there because they want to be. They may be there out of guilt (which is good for them to be there but they need to change their reason). They may be there to see someone. There are all kinds of reasons. Ultimately, it is all of God.

There are many reasons people go to church. Sometimes it is for the great band, or the funny preacher (neither in our case). So "common sense" isn't all that common.

Most constitutions do not spell out the procedure so far as I know. The procedure is spelled out for pastors and deacons. Sunday school teachers and other ministry leaders are typically not spelled out. Here, I can remove them.

That's not waht you said. You said we shouldn't use it. Again, I can quote you if you wish. But you included the telephone in the list of things you think are inappropriate to grow a church. If you meant to say something else, that is fine. Just say, "Sorry, I wasn't clear." No harm done.

It's not my church. Too many people get in trouble thinking it is their church. In fact, maybe that is the basis for this whole thread. If someone thinks it is "my church" then they can pick and choose what to do with "my church."

 

It is almost as if I wrote this myself. This is the *exact* defense mechanism and attitude I was talking about. Down to the final detail.

I mean, I was so bad (still bad, but not as bad) I started thinking I had one of those "social anxiety disorders". I even went as far as taking something for anxiety.

But, I'll say now, that is all a trap. The anxiety, depression, and such, is me trying to handle things on my own. It's part of being an overly self-conscious depraved person. The "higher level" solution is to hand all those worries over to God in prayer, every time they come up. Even if it is a simple "oh Lord, I'm feeling a little worried about this, please put my mind at ease", spoken silently in my mind.

As for the mechanics of interacting, there are a couple things that I am trying to do (yep, still a work in progress!) One is trying to really take a genuine interest in others. So, when talking to someone, I don't tell them about me, I want to find out things about them! I have to consciously think "it's about them, not you", and politely learn more about people... not try to elevate my self in their eyes. I am finding I am really starting to like a lot more people this way... just as a christian should!

The next thing is the names. I am bad with names too... or at least that's what I say. But, it was a disinterest in other people (translation: over-important view of self.) I am now really trying to learn everybody's name I can. When I meet them, I look them straight in the eye and tell them who I am. Then when they tell me their name, I *repeat* it somehow. "Oh, very nice to meet you Fred". Then later, if I am unsure, I ask again. It's not rude, and it shows you care to get it right. Then, when you do get it right, the other people are happy! Especially if it took a couple times "now what is your name again"? It shows you cared to put out the effort.

This older lady was so tickled the other night when I knew her name. I also address older ladies as "Miss Soandso" as opposed to using their name bare, if all I knows is their first name. This is regular for those of a Southern heritage, but very rare in California. I got such a good feeling out of that!

So, I went from (well, am going to) someone who would only get good interactions with others out of doing what I thought made me feel good (bragging, etc.) to someone who gets good interactions out of others by making them feel good! I'm noticing that instead of people talking to me once, and then just saying "hi" later, I'm getting "repeat customers" when it comes to conversations!

It's tough, believe me, I know! But, prayer, and developing a genuine love for your fellow brothers and sisters in Christ is the answer!

 

loaded question

Hi Corndoggy

I too have some problems with the social aspect of church, but am trying on this front. I am trying to remember one name a week. I have begun to connect with a couple of people.

Anyway, you asked about attendance. You should keep the sabbath holy in some way, which I think you are when you attend service. Other than that, pray for what God wants you to do.

That is my opinion.

I have little time or regard for attendance checkers in church. To me it often becomes presumptuous and judgemental.