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Discussion in '2000-02 Archive' started by Sovereign Grace, May 5, 2002.
What is your view of the Gospel in salvation?
"Is it the revealed will of God that he will bring his elect into faith in Christ independent of human instrumentality? That is the question before us and one that we hope to answer with the light we have. We hope to show in this article that God has revealed to us in his Word that the means by which he has chosen to bring the elect to faith in Christ is via the gospel. We are not saying that the gospel produces that faith or that there is something inherent in the gospel to jump-start that faith but that it is upon hearing of the gospel that faith is put into to exercise. There has to be an object for faith since it does not believe in a vacuum. Since we have biblical evidence that God has chosen to use means to reveal the truth concerning Christ to the quickened children of God we must hold to the belief that it is through the gospel that this knowledge of Christ comes from the heart to the head." --Michael Krall
I voted #3.
God alone quickens the elect child of God. Upon hearing the gospel, everything that has to be done with regards to the elect's eternal
destiny has been done.
The gospel does not regenerate, neither does it save. It is the message of his finished salvation
and causes his conversion.
Pinoybaptist said:The gospel does not regenerate, neither does it save. It is the message of his finished salvation and causes his conversion.
So regeneration and conversion work hand in hand? What about someone who never hears the written Gospel are they partakers of the same Eternal Salvation as one who hears it?
If this is a true statement how do you harmonize these passages of scripture?
Romans 10:1 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.
2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
5 For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.
6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above
7 Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)
8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.
19 But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you.
20 But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me.
21 But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.
How do you explain the 13th, 14th, and 15th verses for surely you have to hear the written Gospel to be saved eternally? What about the 17th verse many brethren have asked an explaination of that one So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
If we don't hear the written Gospel how can we believe? How do the Primitive brethren to whom you are a member explain the 10th Chapter of Romans?... Brother Glen
I think pinoybaptist actually stated the very opposite of what you interpreted him to say, tyndale1946. He did not say that regeneration and conversion go hand in hand. He did say, however, that God alone quickens the sinner. Upon hearing or reading the Gospel, the elect child of God is converted. It is impossible for someone to convert to a truth they do not know.
I certainly do not believe in Gospel regeneration, but I most certainly do believe in the necessity of Gospel conversion.
"...[W]e are not saying that the gospel creates this faith in the sinner for that was already imparted at regeneration. To better understand this look at Romans 1:16-17. Paul said that he was not ashamed of the gospel and that in the gospel the "righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith." What does it mean "from faith to faith?" In Phil 3:9 we read "And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through THE FAITH OF CHRIST, the righteousness which is of God by faith:" We read similar phrases in such passages as Galatians 2:16,20 and Romans 3:20 where we read of the faith OF Chris not merely faith IN Christ. We also read of the obedience and blood of Christ unto what we were called to in sanctification of the Spirit (1Pet 1:2). It is Christ's faith and obedience that is imparted in the heart at regeneration. Another passage that expresses this is in Eph 3:12 "In whom [Christ] we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him." Both the initial and all subsequent accesses to the throne of grace are because of the faith and obedience of Christ." --Michael Krall
Hello to All:
I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ for it is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that believeth to the Jew first and also to the Greek.(Romans 1:16).
The Gospel is the power of God UNTO salvation like confession is made UNTO salvation. A mere confession does not give one eternal life and neither does the mere proclaimation of the Gospel.
[ May 05, 2002, 03:57 PM: Message edited by: Christopher ]
I think this verse pretty well answers the question.
Sovereign Grace, my understanding of your question/poll is that you use the gospel to refer to the preaching of the gospel. I'm wondering if all here commenting on the gospel differentiate between the preaching of the gospel and the gospel itself - which is the actual death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ. I make that distinction that there is the gospel itself, and then there is preaching about the gospel. Do others of you understand it that way?
I must also add that I'm am surprised to see that some (2 at present) believe that a sinner may be made alive apart from the work of the Spirit. It would be interesting to know if those who voted that way are Baptists or some other denomination.
For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will. (John 5:21)
The brother brought up a good point. There is the gospel itself - the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ - and the proclaimation of that Gospel. The gospel itself is what saves a man. The proclaimation of that gospel is the "good news" that brings comfort, edification, and instruction to the born again children of God.
For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe. (1 Cor. 1:21)
The preaching of the gospel is to "save them that believe." The word "believe" in 1 Corinthians 1:21 is a present active participle. In other words, preaching saves them that are now (present) believing (active). It does not give them eternal life, for only God can do that. The preaching of the gospel delivers the children of God from the world and all its delusions here in time.
For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. (1 Cor. 1:18)
If a sinner, dead in trespasses and sins, receives life by way of the preaching of the gospel, none would ever be saved. It is foolishness to them that perish. It is only the power of God to the saved.
[ May 05, 2002, 11:18 PM: Message edited by: Christopher ]
It sounds like you are saying that a person is saved by a sovereign decree of God alone prior to hearing the gospel which results in that person coming to faith.
However, this is not the biblical description. Note Ephesians 1. In vss 4 & 5, Paul says that we were chosen before the foundation of the world and were predestined according to God's will. That section would seem to agree with you. But, Paul says in v. 13, "In Him you also trusted after you heard the word of truth" and " having believed you were sealed with the Holy Spirit..." These verses clearly show that, within the boundaries of time and space, a human response is necessary for salvation. Salvation is not based solely upon a decree of God.
[ May 06, 2002, 09:03 AM: Message edited by: swaimj ]
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. (Ephesians 2:8, 9)
Paul is absolutely clear that salvation is totally and wholly by God, not of the works of man. Faith is a work.
Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent. (John 6:28, 29)
It is worth noticing in Ephesians 2:8 that we are "saved by grace through faith." Observe the book of Acts and the equation is reversed, that is, faith through grace.
And when he was disposed to pass into Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him: who, when he was come, helped them much which had believed through grace: (Acts 18:27)
The elect of God are not saved by their own faith because Paul has so clearly stated, "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves."
The faith with which we are saved is the faith OF the Lord Jesus Christ, NOT faith IN the Lord Jesus Christ.
Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: (Romans 3:22)
Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. (Galatians 2:16)
We most certainly are justified by faith; the faith OF the Lord Jesus Christ and His faith only. The justice of God will not be satisfied with a man's faith that wavers. But let me introduce to you a man whose faith never wavered, God's Son. Therefore, it is by the faith OF Him, not IN him, that saves us eternally. We, then, act out that faith.
I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. (Galatians 2:20)
The word "of" shows possession. Therefore, the faith OF Christ is Christ's faith. In this way, the righteousness of God is revealed "from faith to faith." (Romans 1:17)
I have a Deaf Son who cannot hear the written Gospel so the argument that Micheal Krall made is in error. Are you going to give him new ears so that he can hear the written Gospel? Am I suppose to believe in a God that tells me well your Son could not help being born in the world deaf but Salvation is not available to him because he can't hear? He has to hear to have faith that is what the scriptures say Romans 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
I guess you just threw Jeremiah out the door because according to Jeremiah God does not talk to the hearing ear but the changed heart. Jeremiah 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
The heart is changed before the preacher ever gets there by God to receive what the written Gospel says to follow the Lord in obedience. Since God does all the work it puts the written Gospel in a different light in letting his blood bought children hear what he has done for them here and will do for them in eternity. The Living Gospel of the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ!... Brother Glen
Amen, Brother Glenn! God's people sure are blessed that He justifies us by the faith of Jesus Christ and not our faith in Jesus Christ. Don't get me wrong because I certainly do have faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. However, it is not of myself. I have no room to boast, for it is Christ's faith and righteousness which was imputed to me which allows me to believe through grace (Acts 18:27).
Your response to me (or perhaps you were ignoring what I said) fails to explain the simple statements in Eph 1 in which faith is an action attributed to man. If your theology is to be accurate, it must deal with all of the biblical material that is relevant, not just the parts that confirm your position.
In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, (Ephesians 1:13)
seal - in order to prove, confirm, or attest a thing; to confirm authenticate, place beyond doubt
It is not until we hear the gospel (good news) about our salvation that we can be confirmed or beyond doubt that we are the children of God. Life and immortality are not given through the Gospel but brought to light through the Gospel (2 Timothy 1:10).
Indeed. There is Biblical evidence that the Holy Spirit quickens sinners dead in trespasses and sins prior to a belief in the Gospel. We believe through grace (Acts 18:27). It was WHEN we were dead in tresspasses and sins that we were quickened (Ephesians 2:5).
And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven: And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? (Acts 9:3, 4)
No Gospel mentioned here.
And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; (Ephesians 2:1)
No Gospel mentioned here.
Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved (Ephesians 2:5)
No Gospel mentioned here.
And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; (Colossians 2:13)
No Gospel mentioned here.
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. (1 Corinthians 2:14)
If the natural man does not receieve the things of the Spirit of God, he must be made a spiritual man in order that he can. Follow this carefully.
But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. (John 1:12, 13)
Those that believe( present tense) were (past tense) born of God before they believed. Our faith is reactionary to His.
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life. (John 6:47)
The text clearly says, "He that believeth on me hath everlasting life." He already has it!
The righteousness (which is by the faith of Jesus Christ, that is, His faith) of God is imputed unto us when we are born again of His Spirit. It is the faith and righteousness of Jesus Christ that we partake of because we cannot have perfect faith and righteousness in and of ourselves. And brother, that is being saved by GRACE!!!
Chistopher I don't believe there is a true Primitive Baptist that would disagree with any thing you said. Those who disagree bring up the faith chapter of Hebrews 11... By faith Abel, Enoch, Abraham, Noah, Joseph, Moses, Jacob and Issac and the list goes on and on. Please elaborate on this called the faith chapter if you have a mind to... Brother Glen
This verse teaches that God made us alive when we were dead. It does not say that God made us alive prior to our believing. You are reaading that concept into the verse because it fits your preconceived notion.
[ May 07, 2002, 12:01 AM: Message edited by: swaimj ]
6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him,60 and I will raise him up at the last day. - John 6:44 NET