Gospel regeneration, is it biblical? Yes? No?

For your perusal:

18 And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that were disobedient?
19 And we see that they were not able to enter in because of unbelief. Heb 3

And Jehovah said unto Moses and Aaron, Because ye believed not in me, to sanctify me in the eyes of the children of Israel, therefore ye shall not bring this assembly into the land which I have given them. Nu 20:12

Unbelief on the part of a child of God IS disobedience.

 

Ok, I gotcha. I agree.

LOL...I walked right into that one didn't I?

 

Thank you for the Scripture post. I need to go back and reread that part of the Bible again.

But, didn't your post originally use the word "faith?"

I agree with the claim that unbelief can certainly be considered as disobedience - failure to obey.

However, unbelief could also be displayed when presented with a situation so incomprehensible as to appear as "pie in the sky."

When the Israeli folks faced the prospects of doing hand to hand combat with trained armies of Giants, it may have been that the outward display of disobedience came from the inward "fight or flight" compulsion.

They did not have within them the Holy Spirit to provide all that the believer enjoys. They were people with the carnal nature as their mode of operation. As God revealed Himself to them, over and over and the people showed no ability to comprehend or accept the revelations.

 

Psalm 95:

7 for he is our God
and we are the people of his pasture,
the flock under his care.

Today, if only you would hear his voice,
8 “Do not harden your hearts as you did at Meribah,[Meribah means quarreling.]
as you did that day at Massah[Massah means testing.] in the wilderness,
9 where your ancestors tested me;
they tried me, though they had seen what I did.
10 For forty years I was angry with that generation;
I said, ‘They are a people whose hearts go astray,
and they have not known my ways.’
11 So I declared on oath in my anger,
‘They shall never enter my rest.’”

Matthew 4
Jesus Is Tested in the Wilderness
1 Then Jesus was led by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted[The Greek for tempted can also mean tested.] by the devil. 2 After fasting forty days and forty nights, he was hungry. 3 The tempter came to him and said, “If you are the Son of God, tell these stones to become bread.”

4 Jesus answered, “It is written: ‘Man shall not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.’[Deut. 8:3]”

5 Then the devil took him to the holy city and had him stand on the highest point of the temple. 6 “If you are the Son of God,” he said, “throw yourself down. For it is written:

“‘He will command his angels concerning you,
and they will lift you up in their hands,
so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.’[Psalm 91:11,12]”

7 Jesus answered him, “It is also written: ‘Do not put the Lord your God to the test.’[Deut. 6:16]”

8 Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendor. 9 “All this I will give you,” he said, “if you will bow down and worship me.”

10 Jesus said to him, “Away from me, Satan! For it is written: ‘Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.’[Deut. 6:13]”

11 Then the devil left him, and angels came and attended him.

Ephesians 6: 10 Finally, be strong in the Lord and in his mighty power. 11 Put on the full armor of God, so that you can take your stand against the devil’s schemes. 12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms. 13 Therefore put on the full armor of God, so that when the day of evil comes, you may be able to stand your ground, and after you have done everything, to stand. 14 Stand firm then, with the belt of truth buckled around your waist, with the breastplate of righteousness in place, 15 and with your feet fitted with the readiness that comes from the gospel of peace. 16 In addition to all this, take up the shield of faith, with which you can extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one. 17 Take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God.

Matthew 10:34
“Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.

 

And the difference between faith and belief is.........? (read Ro 4)

I believe for the sake of the types the Spirit put the emphasis on unbelief as the sin of 'the wilderness generation'.

 

Are you saying that God's justification and regeneration are not instantaneous? How very Catholic of you! :laugh:

 

But regeneration does not equal "salvation." You have a deficient view of salvation if you think it does.

Salvation, as has been expressed here multiple times of late, includes ALL the aspects that go into the act, including regeneration, but also justification, adoption, election, effectual call, etc.

 

About half. I used to know more about the history than I do now, oh well. I've heard of free will/gospel means PBs but know of none around here.

Wow. Don't know whether to say halleluyah or beware. I like halleluyah! But my guts tell me beware.

 

When you ask "born again" Christians when they were saved, most will give you a calendar date (though they may not know the specific date, they remember the specific day).

A few will say - at Calvary on the day of the crucifixion.

Others will say when their names were written in the lamb's book of life slain from the foundation of the world.

I may be wrong but I think Primitive Baptists emphasize the latter.

God created time to keep everything from happening at once (or so it seems).

HankD

 

Absolutely...that is Paul's primary thrust in this passage: that man has an internal knowledge that there is, not gods, but God.

I recently was taken to task by some atheists for declaring to them that they were a very religous people. Talk about indignation...lol.

What was humorous (and only to me, I was definitely in the minority) was that one of them had posted a mocking description of "religious people" (and of course they do not understand the difference between religion in itself and Christianity) which listed the earmarks of religion. I think the one that got them the worst was "religions have symbols," which they denied athiesm as having...until I showed them a link that was easily pulled up by googling "atheist symbols" (or something of that nature.

Another earmark of religion is a system of thought that explains the universe...and we know their system of thought on that.

All that to say, man is a religious creature, needing only a focus in which to express his worship. For the most part, mankind will express a belief in either a god or gods, but ew can see that even for the secular humanist, there is a god, which is himself.

Paul relates this internal knowledge within man, and if we trace back to the Garden, we understand that man has from the beginning had knowledge of God, the burden of passing down that knowledge given to parents, who, being human, are sure to corrupt that knowledge except that God be merciful and intervene, that knowedge is not corrupted, but that man has a true understanding of God and His will.

And, though I have but a short time, I am getting long-winded, despite my efforts to hurry, and, because the discussion is fascinating, I hope to actually look at this issue in detail, so I will be breaking this up, first, so that if it becomes necessary to leave due to time limitation, I can step away, and secondly to make it a little easier to respond to in a point by point fashion.

Continued...

 

I didn't mean to break up your continue, here is an article that you might find interesting

 

We have to keep in mind that these "doers of the law" were still going to be judged...by the law.

Those that are born again will be judged, assuredly, but, Paul makes it clear that their salvation will remain intact.

In ch.2 of Romans, we can see that Paul's comparing Gentiles (who were not given the law) with Israel, who were given the law. He is getting ready to reiterate a point he made in ch.2:


Romans 3

9What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;

He had already said...


Romans 2

3And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?


6Who will render to every man according to his deeds:


11For there is no respect of persons with God.

12For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;


In view, I believe, is a contrast between Jew and Gentile...both coming under judgment.

We do not have all three primary groups, Jew, Gentile, and Christian...but only the first two.

If we try to make the Gentiles to fit the New Covenant pattern of relationship with God through the work of the Holy Spirit, we must also conclude that the "knowldge" (meaning an intimate relationship here) of the Jew who himself is found guilty because he did not in fact keep the law (as posed in question form by Paul when he asks "Do you teach yourself? Steal? Commit adultery? Commit sacrilege?) but caused the name of God to be blasphemed specifically because they had the law...but did not keep it.

He then goes on to find both Jew and Gentile guilty, despite the advantage of the Jew in receiving the oracles of God. Found here.


And while Paul does say...



Romans 2

King James Version (KJV)


6Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

7To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:


...I do not think, according to the whole counsel of the word, that we can make a case that through the internal awareness of God, and of righteousness, that this can be taken to mean that men were regenerated under the law.




8But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

9Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;


And again, Paul maintains his declaration of those that will be judged, meaning, Jew and Gentile. Only two groups, whereas after that Christ had come, accomplished atonement and sent the Comforter, we then see three groups discussed by Paul, Jew, Gentile, and believers.

While the Old Testament Saints were justified through faith, we read in Hebrews:



Hebrews 11

King James Version (KJV)

39And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:


Israel awaited the promise of God, said to be rest in the promised land, fulfilled in part in Canaan, to be fufilled further in the temporal sense in the Millennial Kingdom, and will find its ultimate fulfillment in the spiritual sense in Christ as well as the eternal state, so that when we read:


Hebrews 4:1

King James Version (KJV)

1Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.

...we do not have a warning of "losing salvation," or making "shipwreck" our faith, but we see an exhortation to belief and perseverence...in Christ. This is why the writer goes through the trouble to contrast the First and New Covenants.




Hebrews 11

King James Version (KJV)

39And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:

They obtained a good report through faith, and we see Paul's teaching concerning justification through faith: they had a positional standing which reflects that expressed by Paul concerning "law-keeping" Gentiles and "law-breaking Jews," but, one thing they yet lacked...that was completion which would come only through Jesus Christ.


40God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

The "they" are the Old Testament Saints, not restricted to the Covenant of Law, but intentionally referring to all that had "faith" and were deemed "just" before Christ.

The writer, throughout the book of Hebrews, details "perfection" and how that applies to the believer.


Hebrews 12

1Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,

2Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.


The faith of those that came before Christ witnesses to the fact that we are "saved by grace through faith."

Even a faith expressed that has it's focus on God, whereas in these last days God has spoken to us through His Son, and the focus of faith is specifically in Christ, that He died in our place, our sins being placed upon Him, the penalty...paid in full, or...completely.

Jesus is the Author and "perfecter" of our faith. But...it was necessary for Him to first come, that believers be made perfect, or, complete, in regards to remission of sins and being set apart from God. While the Old Testament saint was, as we often say, "Saved on credit," their faith being counted as righteousness, I think it a mistake to equate the faith which they had with the completion that Christ accomplished for those that call on His name.

The Old Testament Saints did not receive the promised rest, but now, they, with us...have. And that was accomplished through the work of Christ.


I don't think I am going to get to all of this this morning...lol.


Continued...

 

Hello Psalms, a good read, which, I think, shows that it is true, "there is nothing new under the sun."

The denial of atheists, I think, in most cases, can be ascribed directly to the knowledge of God which they receive which does not line up with how they would create God...one of man's biggest problems.

They assume a moral superiority over the God of the Bible which, at its heart, can be due to a very poor understanding of scripture, coupled with the internal nature of man that leads to rebellion against submission to the God of the Bible.

It is said, "The single greatest cause of atheism is...Christians."

I believe that in many cases that is true. Children are brought up being told this, and seeing that...in the lives of their parents. Atheists have a very clear picture of Who God is, and what scripture teaches that God does in the lives of those that are His children, and when the Church does not meet that expectation, they deem the power of God...to be non-existant.

This alone has taught me that how I conduct myself before the world, particularly in relation to those that are my brethren, is a serious matter, that I do not cause God's name to be blasphemed by denying His power at work in my heart. I fail, at times, but the awareness that God has brought to my heart of this crucial matter convicts me, and I judge myself guilty.

Again, great article, wish I had time to look at it in detail, it could be the start of a great thread.

God bless.

 

I just do not believe that men were born again before Pentecost.

Consider the disciples of Christ, who for three years sat under the teaching of Christ, being told directly of His death which was to come. We can look at John 6 for a description of the life which Christ would give, through His body, that is, His death.

We consider that the faithful of Hebrews 11 were not made perfect, they did not receive the promise, which I believe in the salvific sense refers to the change from the First Covenant (which could not take away sins) to the New, whereby "one offering He has perfected forever them that are sanctified, and they were sanctified...once." (Heb. 10:10-14)

I believe Paul's point to focus on the fact that men have no excuse, all are guilty, and he quotes Old Testament testimony to this fact.

The contrast between Jew and Gentile is to emphasize man's internal awareness, despite what they do with that knowledge, which, Paul points out, is not capable of keeping man from rejecting that knowledge and subsequently engage in idolatrous and abominable pratice.

But...



Romans 1:16

King James Version (KJV)

16For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

...the Gospel, and all that this word speaks of...is.

The focus of faith makes a decided shift from a general belief in God to an express faith in the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Before Christ, they awaited redemption (primarily temporal) in Messiah.

After, we understand better our predicament concerning sin and the impending judgment for that sin, knowing now that Christ died for our sin, in our place, that we should not receive the condemnation which passed unto all men.

The faithful before Christ had no such focus for their faith, for this truth is not revealed until Christ is revealed, and as I see it, it is not until the indwelling of God began performing His ministry in the lives of men that man could in fact undertand his predicament and his dire need for Christ.

And I just do not see it that way. God gifts men with abilities to share with men the knowledge that they need.

We do not need to think that men, because God uses them, play a part in the actual event of salvation.

I look at it like this: we are the physical body of Christ on the earth today, and it is Christ in us that gives the ability to convey the Gospel to those that are in need of this message.

We do not limit the spread of the Gospel to men only, but we recognize that men have been saved through the reading of scripture, and at times in our history, despite so-called Church Organization, men have come to saving faith through the written word, but we ascribe the actual saving always...to God.

It is true that salvation can be seen to recognize several areas within man's salvation, such as temporal as oppsed to eternal, but we have to recognize that there is a point in time here in which a man is saved. As we go through the word of God we are forced to clarify context and subject matter so that we do not confuse temporal perfection, which is our progressive sanctification that is observed by men, such as we see in James' teaching concerning our righteous standing before men, and the eternal sanctification which is God's declaration of righteousness based upon the finished work of Christ.

We can see this same principle in the use of the word soul: it has different applications and unless we clarify their use and distinguish context, we will, as you have pointed out concerning sozo, misapply the word and come to a wrong conclusion as to the text in view.

I would point out that one member, when given a verse concerning sozo, was able to distinguish that it was in fact a temporal context, so I believe that many understand this, yet many will have a hard time seeing salvation as an ongoing process when it is dsicussed in the manner it has been so far.

We can rightly say we are: 1-saved; 2-being saved; 3-and will be saved. Though we can still rest in the promise of God that we are in fact saved at this point in the positional declaration of God through the imputed righteousness of Christ...alone.

The righteousness we gain as we are perfected in the temporal sense...now that is another matter altogether.


Continued...

 

It was a start of a thread that went no where. If you want to know where a quote comes from click the arrow next to their moniker in a quote and it will show the source, here is the source.

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?p=1681043#post1681043

 

Your presupposition of external means regeneration blinds you to the glorious truth of this passage. The passage totally blows external means regeneration out of the water, and gospel means folks are at a loss to grasp it's true import, and subsequently force the meaning that you've just espoused into it. Your's is the prevailing misinterpretation. You've plenty of company on this one.

The context of the passage is concerning THE LAW, not a moral law, or some internal knowledge that is universal to all men, and these particular Gentiles are described as doers of the law, and that by nature, because the work of the law has been written in their hearts.

These Gentiles are the true Jews of v 29, they are the children of the heavenly Zion of Ps 87 & Gal 4, the children of the desolate of Isa 54:1 and Gal 4, the “other sheep I have, which are not of this fold” of Jn 10:16.

The truths revealed in chapter 2 culminate with the question of 3:1:

“What advantage then hath the Jew? or what is the profit of circumcision?”

 

We do not have to conclude that, I feel.

This passage again leads me to believe that it was at this time that man was"Given the power to become the sons of God," basically, at the time in which the Son of God manifested in the flesh, died according to the scriptures, rose again, and did that which He said He would do...return to Heaven and send the Comforter.

We see in Acts 1...



Acts 1:4-5

King James Version (KJV)

4And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.

5For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.


...that the disciples had as of yet not received the Spirit, though some see this as happening previously through Christ's command to...receive the Spirit. I would think this would clarify that they had not.

We look at John's (the Baptist) statement:


Matthew 3:11

King James Version (KJV)

11I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance. but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:


Two baptisms in view: with fire (judgment, as clarified in the text); with the Holy Spirit. Throughout John 13-16 we see that Christ's death and the coming of the Holy Spirit, another comforter, was yet future. We see a glorious change in the ministration of God in the lives of men that very day, where those who in defeat had gone back to fishing were born again and began to go about preaching the Gospel, in a way in which they had not before...now understanding that Messiah had not come to establish a temporal Kingdom and restoration of Israel, but had come to establish the Church, and a Kingdom that did not come with observation, and...a restoration of man, in which man received that which the law could not do.

I absolutely agree. Salvation is wholly the work of God, and except He move the heart of man, man cannot be saved.

Look at the disciples. They, including Judas, were empowered by the Holy Spirit to preach the Gospel, cast out demons, heal the sick. But, when Christ went to the Cross, they were, according to scripture...scattered. They did not grasp the role which Christ would play. Not until, I believe, they were born again.

This does not deny the work of the Holy Spirit under the First Covenant, nor before that, we can see that God has always worked in the hearts of men.

But...under the New, we have the indwelling which is said to be eternal, and we need not worry that what happened to King Saul, will happen to us.


Continued...