Government to pastor: Renounce your faith!

Under the heading decision, number 14, sec. a, from the link provided by Magnetic Pole, we find :

 

I didn't say they were completely independent. Their authority is granted by the legislature, but they operate with complete independence from the government.

 

The word operate doesn't divorce their relationship with the government.

 

While we may not all agree on the status of the Law of Moses, which I understand as being the "613" laws (and I thought the 10 commandments are in that number), I think we can agree it is a tricky question whose answer is not at all obvious.

My conclusion (following the thinking of British theologian NT Wright, at least as I understand him) is this: The "Torah" - the set of laws given to the Jews in the OT, are no longer in force (for anyone). This is because Torah was given to serve a purpose and that purpose has been fulfilled.

You may be surprised at what I will claim that purpose to be. One of the central purposes of the Torah was to cause sin to increase in the nation of Israel - to actually cause sin to reach full height of expression.

I cite these texts from Romans in defence of this view:

The law was added so that the trespass might increase....

Did that which is good, then, become death to me? By no means! But in order that sin might be recognized as sin, it produced death in me through what was good, so that through the commandment sin might become utterly sinful

Paul, I claim, has insight here that is almost never recognized - God gives Torah to Israel with the intention of making her more sinful and to, in a sense, lure sin into one "place" (Israel) and bring it to full flower of expression.

Why would God to such a thing? I think that God has essentially "lured" the power of sin into national Israel and coaxed it to "full expression" through Torah, so that it becomes vulnerable.

Vulnerable to what? To being then transferred to the body of Israel's faithful Messiah - Jesus - who then defeats the power of sin its full measure of hideousness.

A lot more could be said about this notion, but I hope the general idea of it is clear.

So, returning to the subject at hand, the purpose of Torah is accomplished - sin has been lured into a vulnerable position and broken. Since the task is accomplished, Torah can be retired with honour.

Jesus enacts the retirement of the Torah when in Matthew 12, He intentionally breaks the Sabbath Law.

To keep this post short, I will say that while I believe Torah, no longer applies, I believe that the following, which I see as the "spirit of Torah" is still most definitely in force:

Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" 37Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.'[b] 38This is the first and greatest commandment. 39And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'[c] 40All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments

 

I have re-read the letter and I still think Mr. Boisson went too far, specifically with the disease metaphor. The "Jew as a disease" metaphor was used extensively by Hitler. The unstated implication - eradicate the Jews. While Mr. Boisson may not have intended to use the same tactic, he effectively did when he implied that homosexuals are a "disease" and that we must "do whatever it takes" to deal with the problem.

You may have a point here, but we need to be careful in modeling our own behaviour after Jesus in all the details. After all, I assume that you would agree that those who "crucify" themselves on Easter are carrying the "be like Christ" issue too far. I could argue that Jesus indeed has the moral ground to make such characterizations as in these texts. The "religious right" with its arguable collaboration with over-the top materialism and militarism, may not be in the same position.

And my concern has been with "disease" metaphor. It invites a response of eradication - and that's why it worked so well for Hitler. Besides, I suspect that in Jesus' time, there were not people itching for a reason to "lay the smack-down" on the Pharisees - they were not a vulnerable group like homoesexuals are in our culture.

But I do appreciate your use of Scripture - a practise that is all too rare here - and I do think your argument certainly has some merit and is worth thinking about.

 

The commission is an agency with the power to charge, rule, decide and punish people. That sure sounds like government to me! As I understand it, the federal constitution in Canada gives the Provinces jurisdiction in matters of property and civil rights. The commission ultimately exists and operates under authority derieved from the federal government of Canada. But, regardless, of the particular legal details it is obviously not the doing of some local social club, homeowner's association, or private agency. It is government in action at its worst!

 

It's time to read Boission's letter again and ponder carefully what he wrote:

"Homosexual Agenda Wicked
June 17, 2002
Red Deer Advocate

The following is not intended for those who are suffering from an unwanted sexual identity crisis. For you, I have understanding, care, compassion and tolerance. I sympathize with you and offer you my love and fellowship. I prayerfully beseech you to seek help, and I assure you that your present enslavement to homosexuality can be remedied. Many outspoken, former homosexuals are free today.

Instead, this is aimed precisely at every individual that in any way supports the homosexual machine that has been mercilessly gaining ground in our society since the 1960s. I cannot pity you any longer and remain inactive. You have caused far too much damage.

My banner has now been raised and war has been declared so as to defend the precious sanctity of our innocent children and youth, that you so eagerly toil, day and night, to consume. With me stand the greatest weapons that you have encountered to date - God and the "Moral Majority." Know this, we will defeat you, then heal the damage that you have caused. Modern society has become dispassionate to the cause of righteousness. Many people are so apathetic and desensitized today that they cannot even accurately define the term "morality."

The masses have dug in and continue to excuse their failure to stand against horrendous atrocities such as the aggressive propagation of homo- and bisexuality. Inexcusable justifications such as, "I'm just not sure where the truth lies," or "If they don't affect me then I don't care what they do," abound from the lips of the quantifiable majority.

Face the facts, it is affecting you. Like it or not, every professing heterosexual is have their future aggressively chopped at the roots.

Edmund Burke's observation that, "All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing," has been confirmed time and time again. From kindergarten class on, our children, your grandchildren are being strategically targeted, psychologically abused and brainwashed by homosexual and pro-homosexual educators.

Our children are being victimized by repugnant and premeditated strategies, aimed at desensitizing and eventually recruiting our young into their camps. Think about it, children as young as five and six years of age are being subjected to psychologically and physiologically damaging pro-homosexual literature and guidance in the public school system; all under the fraudulent guise of equal rights.

Your children are being warped into believing that same-sex families are acceptable; that men kissing men is appropriate.

Your teenagers are being instructed on how to perform so-called safe same gender oral and anal sex and at the same time being told that it is normal, natural and even productive. Will your child be the next victim that tests homosexuality positive?

Come on people, wake up! It's time to stand together and take whatever steps are necessary to reverse the wickedness that our lethargy has authorized to spawn. Where homosexuality flourishes, all manner of wickedness abounds.

Regardless of what you hear, the militant homosexual agenda isn't rooted in protecting homosexuals from "gay bashing." The agenda is clearly about homosexual activists that include, teachers, politicians, lawyers, Supreme Court judges, and God forbid, even so-called ministers, who are all determined to gain complete equality in our nation and even worse, our world.

Don't allow yourself to be deceived any longer. These activists are not morally upright citizens, concerned about the best interests of our society. They are perverse, self-centered and morally deprived individuals who are spreading their psychological disease into every area of our lives. Homosexual rights activists and those that defend them, are just as immoral as the pedophiles, drug dealers and pimps that plague our communities.

The homosexual agenda is not gaining ground because it is morally backed. It is gaining ground simply because you, Mr. and Mrs. Heterosexual, do nothing to stop it. It is only a matter of time before some of these morally bankrupt individuals such as those involved with NAMBLA, the North American Man/Boy Lovers Association, will achieve their goal to have sexual relations with children and assert that it is a matter of free choice and claim that we are intolerant bigots not to accept it.

If you are reading this and think that this is alarmist, then I simply ask you this: how bad do things have to become before you will get involved? It's time to start taking back what the enemy has taken from you. The safety and future of our children is at stake.

Rev. Stephen Boissoin"

​

Boissoin wrote the truth. It's just that this truth is difficult for some to accept.

 

Dragoon, it's not "the government" in the sense in which that term is typically used, as the current elected officials and parties have absolutely no participation in the system. It's quasi-judicial, so think about it as essentially being a court system under the nominal jurisdiction of the legislative branch (as indeed ALL courts in Canada are, including the Supreme Court, which has no independent constitutional basis).

Now, we can debate the merits of this institution (and I would agree it has many, many flaws), but that in no way excuses the incredibly poor article which began this thread.

 

This is a quote taken from the PDF file that was referred to by someone (magnetic pole?):

"1. The Panel finds, and the Panel orders as follows:

1. 1. a. That Mr. Boissoin and The Concerned Christian Coalition Inc. shall cease publishing in newspapers, by email, on the radio, in public speeches, or on the internet, in future, disparaging remarks about gays and homosexuals. Further, they shall not and are prohibited from making disparaging remarks in the future about Dr. Lund or Dr. Lund’s witnesses relating to their involvement in this complaint. Further, all disparaging remarks versus homosexuals are directed to be removed from current web sites and publications of Mr. Boissoin and The Concerned Christian Coalition Inc.
      
   2. b. That The Concerned Christian Coalition Inc. and Mr. Boissoin shall, in future, be restrained from committing the same or similar contraventions of the Act. "

The sections I marked with bold lettering basically prohibits Mr. Boissoin from ever saying anything in public (I presume that means in ANY conversation with ANYONE) that might be considered "disparaging remarks" by any homosexual person. If that is not telling a preacher to stop preaching (and therefore to renounce his faith and his calling), then nothing is!

This is where we are headed (worldwide) with so-called "hate legislation". I submit to you that the TRUE hatred is coming against Christ and His followers, NOT against homosexuals. After all, we desire that they repent of their sins and be saved by Christ Jesus, just as we have repented and been saved from OUR sins (whatever they have been).

Please, let's stop arguing about whether words show hatred, and start worrying about the lost people around us! Let's pray for the members of that commission (and other similar ones) that THEY meet Jesus and accept the Truth and Life that He freely gives. Let's also pray for our government officials, at all levels, that they will know Jesus just as well.

BTW, pray for who God wishes to be our next President, too!

Bill :godisgood:

 

Clearly not. But I never said they didn't have a relationship -- I said they're not the same thing. Which you've just implicitly agreed to by recognizing them as separate entities with a relationship between them.

 

Good luck with that.

 

While it may be true that there is some truth in the letter, it also crosses the line, deploying the all too commonly used "the enemy as a disease" metaphor with the hidden implication of the need to eradicate:

Note the use of the word "plague" - another word akin to disease. Mr. Boisson, whether realizes it or not, has bought into the deeply sinister rhetoric that suggests eradication of an enemy while not coming out directly and saying so. There is a long tradtion of the "enemy as a disease" rhetoric in the sad history of humankind.

It is time for Christians to put an end to it.

The unwillingness to confront this unacceptable behaviour shows how the Christian community will countenance any critique of positions that are indeed against the gospel. And this is not gospel way. Even though the promotion of the normalization of homosexaul behaviour is against the gospel, this does not legitimate the use of hate to combat it.

 

I still say the pastor speaks the truth. If its true...accept it.... or fight it: You wont change it!

Homosexuality is a behavior subject to the judgements of morality: Immorality, in whatever form it takes is a plague on any nation that not only tolerates it but promotes its acceptance. This tribunal (tribunal, def=a seat or court of justice; one who has the power of determining) is opposing and charging the pastor for upholding morality and reminding others of their passivity in allowing the 'normalizeing and acceptance' of this sin by promotional propaganda. As such it does spread like a 'psychological disease' because it is biased propaganda. As such it is the politics and philosophy of its spread which he comes against....not the people.

But some already have their mind made up that it is proper to defend its promotion into society and the schools

and to restrict the speech of those who oppose elevating promiscuity as healthy for a society.

Give evil a voice and call that 'good'..... and remove the watchman on the wall and call the life saving alarm 'evil'....... We live in an upsidedown world.

 

No one, least of all me, supports the promotion of the normalization of homosexual behaviour in our society. But this does not mean that we "take any means necessary" to deal with it.

I note that no one has taken issue my argument about how the disease metaphor is used to suggest a response of eradication. And I suspect that this is because it would be a losing argument to do so - it is unfortunate and perhaps not intended, but Mr. Boisson's appeal to this metaphor goes too far. This is how Hitler sewed the seeds of hate against the Jews - repeatedly suggesting that they were a disease.

Human beings are not disease organisms to be eradicated. Granted, Mr. Boisson did not say this directly, but I think that the implication is there by any reasonable measure. Human beings are broken vessels that need healing, not eradication.

Imagine if someone used the "free speech" defence to write this about Christians:

These Christians activists are not morally upright citizens, concerned about the best interests of our society. They are perverse, self-centered and morally deprived individuals who are spreading their psychological disease into every area of our lives. Christians and those that defend them, are just as immoral as the pedophiles, drug dealers and pimps that plague our communities.

Now I suspect you will all say that such speech, while offensive to we Christians should be tolerated. I suspect that you might feel differently if Christians were subjected to the kind of harrassment that gays are presently subjected to.

 

This statement:

while false..... is still not stating that Christians are a disease or plague....only that associated doctrine and 'evangelizing' is. ------Hey, keep it up Andre: The world is already refusing the doctrine of Man's deprivity and the need for God and salvation and fighting against the knowledge that there is a judgement to come and an eternity to face: Whenever some corruption enters a Christian leaders' life or a "Christian's" moral failure is associated by the world with his presumed faith.... the world attacks Christianity with a vengence worse than this pastor attacks the inroads of homosexuality into the institutions which used to support the values of family and faith.

You may call it 'hate'....... but the Bible declares we are to do whatever we can to pull souls out/away from fire...... but hate defilement of their very garments. Can't garments be a form of falsehoods, adornment, the window dressing of making something appear desirable when it really is not...... which covers and mask the filthy and destructive reality of sin? (Isn't this a fitting analogy to the propaganda which homosexuals use to promote their lifestyle?)


Jesus lets us choose, but he makes the choice very narrow: We are either for him or against him: We cannot serve two masters: We will prefer one and dispise the other... ........Pray God, that in our desire to be compassionate to the lost, we don't make the mistake of endorsing or appearing to endorse their shackles of sin as our acceptance or promotion of their sin. The good pastor made a clear call of alarm: Any less would confuse the issue for a society already so invaded by compromise to this issue.

 

[SIZE=+1]Christians do need to work towards eradication of homosexual conduct and all other sinful conduct as well and that what's Boission called for in his letter! There's nothing wrong with calling the Church to action!

There's no indication of plot in Boission's letter to exterminate homosexuals such as Hitler's plan to exterminate the Jews! It's clear from his tone and subsequent comments that wasn't his plan nor even the unintended result of his letter. It's far fetched to suggest that! It is, however, exactly what the wicked homosexual agenda wants people to think because it puts fear into the public conscience and transfers the focus of evil from the homosexual to those who object to it. It's a common attempt to make the accused into a innocent victim of hatred. They really want to use that "hate" card to silence any and all opposition. Sadly, it very often works!

The real danger is not from those that oppose homosexual conduct but, rather, from those that support it both actively and passively. Those who do so actively have a certain agenda and that agenda is to make homosexuals a protected minority such that they may openly and boldly practice their sinful conduct in plain sight to the disgust of a society unable to voice even the slightest objection. They want to be able to marry, to adopt children, to teach, to preach, etc. openly and boldly - even brashly - as homosexuals. under protection of force of law. They, as all sinners, we trapped under the cover of darkness and hiding but now they see a way to bring their sin out into the light and unconcealed. They think they will be vindicated and perhaps before some they will be but God shall forever be gravely displeased.
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Personally, I prefer not to associate homosexual conduct with disease because I think that suggests it's not the fault of the participants it most certainly is. But, in a broad sense, a consequence of sin - all sin - is disease and ultimately death. That's the curse we live under for being fallen away from God. Active homosexuals do seem to suffer from a greater incidence of sexually transmitted disease and that may well be a consequence of their particular sin. The Bible states in Romans 1:26-27 "For this reason God gave them over to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged the natural sexual relations for unnatural ones, and likewise the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed in their passions for one another. Men committed shameless acts with men and received in themselves the due penalty for their error." Unrepentant homosexuals would like this and other verses to be removed from the Bible just as all sinners want other verses which convict them of their own particular sins.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1]
Homosexual conduct has become like a plague in our own nation and that's more apparent each year. It's progress seems relentless. The Bible records the story of what happened in one place when that plague had consumed the heart and mind of nearly every inhabitant.

Christians should preach to active homosexuals encouraging them to put away their sin. Christians should not put themselves above any others because they also have sinned and a worthy only of the same punishment. Christians should actively, openly, and boldly stand against such blatant sinful conduct for the sake of the communities and nations in which they live. They should be thinking about the impact such things will have upon their children and grandchildren and should be willing to do whatever is necessary to counter Satan's quest to exploit mankind's fallen nature. They should absolutely not "put an end to" their objections. Their voices should be louder and stronger and more direct and without shame or excuse or apology.[/SIZE]

 

Makes me wonder if you were born after the age of enlightenment, aka "political correctness".
Gays were more harassed by the public in general, if you can call that harrassment, than Christians in particular, until the age of enlightenment was spawned by the devil.
These aberrations were teased, insulted, mocked, mauled, and whatever mostly by unchurched "machos".
Before the "age of enlightenment", at least in my country, the Philippines, as far as I can remember, as one of the baby boomer generation, most Christians treated gays in a Christlike manner. Yea, even some Catholics I knew.

However, when it became obvious that these people were slowly gaining "respectability", thanks to many liberal, non-Christian organizations, bolder Christians stood up to point out the degenerative effects to our children in particular, and to society in general, of their hidden, but obvious agenda which is to change the way people and generations think of their aberrant behavior from unacceptable and abnormal to acceptable and perfectly normal, the change to be implemented in classrooms and the young minds therein, while the unchurched machos who were their real tormentors zipped their mouths in fear.

I am glad there are people like the gentleman in question who boldy stand out for their faith, and for what Scriptures say.

I am curious if you, Andre, will preach against homosexuality and sodomy in your church if a law were passed making it a hate crime to speak against such in any setting.
I pray you will.
I know I would, by God's grace.

 

Fortunately, we have the first amendment in the federal constitution in the United States and organizations such as the ACLU to help defend it in court if need be.

 

While Mr. Boisson may not have intended to do this, he effectively characterizes homosexual rights advocates as a disease and thereby, by implication, suggests a response of eradication. And this implication is driven home further by the suggestion about doing "whatever it takes".

Now you all may circle the wagons here and argue that he never explicitly makes an extemination suggestion. And I am 99 % sure he did not intend to come across as he did.

I am sorry, gentlemen, the letter is what it is - the chosen words are the words people will read. And though we all agree that the promotion of the homosexual is harmful, the letter indeed does promote hate.

 

Yes I will. But I will choose my words more carefully than Mr. Boisson.