Grace, Calvin vs all others

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by Yelsew2, Mar 3, 2004.

  1. Yelsew2

    Yelsew2
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    I am aware this has been discussed before, but it seems that there are very few who have actually done a study to determine what grace really is. So with that in mind, I would like the Calvinists to define for all of us exactly what grace is and what grace does. Here's some starter questions

    Grace:

    Is it Transferable......Yes?.....NO?

    Is Given as a gift from one being to another....Yes?....NO?

    Is Selectively applied by God.....Yes?....NO?

    Comes in many flavors.....Yes?.....NO?

    Has the power to save a man's soul....Yes....No?

    Provides strength to humans in times of trial....Yes?.....No?

    Is a Behavioral Attribute....Yes?....No?

    Is found in Salvation.....Yes?.....No?

    Is the source of Salvation....Yes?....No?

    Allows Faith to come through hearing the Word of God....Yes?....No?

    What say you?
     
  2. Frogman

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    Why not read what Calvin wrote? Maybe that would help you understand what he said and what he believed.

    Bro. Dallas
     
  3. Yelsew2

    Yelsew2
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    Can't answer simple yes or no questions?
     
  4. cdg

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    No. Because if one does it will be construed to mean something it does not.
     
  5. Frogman

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    Yes I can, but no I can't. I know very little about what Calvin believed.
     
  6. cdg

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    Grace:

    Is it Transferable......Yes?.....NO?-yes, God gives grace or transfers it.

    Is Given as a gift from one being to another....Yes?....NO? Yes, again God does give grace to depraved men.

    Is Selectively applied by God.....Yes?....NO?-God gives grace to whom He will. Who is that? To whomever He wills. He is not forced to do anything. He will do what He says He will. But He will do whatever His will is.

    Comes in many flavors.....Yes?.....NO? The Bible talks about manifold grace, maybe that is your flavors, maybe not. But there are measures of grace, yes.

    Has the power to save a man's soul....Yes....No?
    Yes, according to Ephesians 2:8, "For by grace are ye saved, through faith and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God."

    Provides strength to humans in times of trial....Yes?.....No?
    Yes, I believe God gives grace to some when He so desires. An example, maybe dying grace, for a saint dying.
    Is a Behavioral Attribute....Yes?....No?
    I think that God's grace could be called a attribute or characteristic of God, Because when I think of Him I think of His grace as I do His love or holiness. Not saying these are all the same. Just they seem to be characteristic of God. He is a holy, loving, and gracious God.

    Is found in Salvation.....Yes?.....No?
    No, I guess it's not found in salvation, but salvation is a result of it. If God had not grace on us we could not be saved.

    Is the source of Salvation....Yes?....No?
    Salvation is of the Lord. And God's grace is of the Lord.

    Allows Faith to come through hearing the Word of God....Yes?....No? Yes, without the grace of God a sinner could not hear the Word of God and if he heard it, he could not believe it. Because salvation is of the Lord.

    What say you? I say grace is the unmerited favor of God. His lovingkindness toward man. Something we do not merit. But is freely given by God. Thank God for His grace. Also, these are my views and I claim only to speak for myself and not for all calvinists or all anything, just for me. Reason being is there are probably many that understand it differently. So I cant speak for them.
    Oh yeah, I am not an expert on Calvin either, or grace for that matter, but these are my answers to your questions as far as I understand them.
     
  7. Yelsew2

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    Thanks cdg,
    Please understand that I am not criticizing you, just the understanding of what Grace is and what Grace does.

    If God's grace is transferable, and if you have received this transfered grace, then you have grace that you can transfer to me. To provide the truth of this belief, why don't you send me some via Fed-EX? I promise to send it back so you will not be short. Oh, can't do that? Well if you can't then you probably did not receive any Grace in the first place. Do you understand the point? Grace is not a transferable commodity!

    Same as above. If you have been given the gift of grace as you would be given a birthday present, you should have it so that you can display it for all to see. But alas, you do not have any because none has been given to you!

    I believe that God does in fact control who he is gracious to, in the same manner that we humans are gracious to whomever we will be gracious to. None of us is gracious to all, though in the case of pastors there are unreasonable expectations place upon them to be gracious to everyone!

    Grace received is grace perceived! There are 6 Billion humans on the face of the earth, there could be as many as 6 Billion perceptions of grace. But God's grace is Constant because God is Constant.

    Another who misinterprets Ephesians 2:8. In light of all other scriptures relating to Salvation which is what "saved" means, it is man's FAITH in God that saves, and not God's grace. God's grace enables man to come to FAITH in God, and that pleases God very much when one does come to faith in Him. But it is not God's grace that saves, IT IS GOD who saves, and HE saves those who have faith in HIM. My oh My isn't that a gracious thing to do, save those who believe in you. Don't we all do that for those who believe in us? Don't we devote ourselves to them?
    Salvation is the result of faith found in the man, which was gained while the man was under the grace of God. So your answer here is correct Grace is not found in Salvation, but without Grace, there could be no salvations because Jesus is God's GIFT OF GRACE TO MAN. Jesus Took all the sins (man's) of the world upon himself, and Paid the penalty for those sins in his own death on the Altar of Grace, the Cross. With the penalty of sin paid for, man can now have everlasting life through faith in Jesus! Yes, grace is essential to salvation because it gives man the time and the opportunity to hear the Word of God and believe in God's gift of Grace to mankind.
    Grace is NOT the source of Salvation, the Gift of Grace, JESUS is, and the Word of God, the GOSPEL, introduces us to Jesus, and through believing unto FAITH in Jesus, man is given the free gift of everlasting life.
    Well in light of the following I think you may want to reconsider what Grace does. Grace is how God is perceived to behave toward those who are undergoing trials. Truly God's grace does not change, his compassion is steady, his favor toward his created man is steady, even though we are constantly testing His will with our antics.
    You did not answer this. Is it, or is it not a behavioral attribute?

    Even so what you did say is that Grace is a characteristic of God. How is it that one can give away that which is characteristic of one's self? This contradicts your answers to the questions above. One cannot give what is characteristic of one's self to another! So God's Grace is not a transferable commodity! It is not something that God can give, but rather, is the manner in which God behaves toward those whom he chooses to favor!
    Good answer except for the part about not believing God's word. Without Belief, Faith is not possible. Without FAITH, salvation is not possible. "Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God."
     
  8. cdg

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    Yelsew,

    Thanks for not criticizing. I will not try to reply to all of your reply but only parts.
    God does give grace, but we can not give His grace. Because God can do something, it does not follow we can do something. Ex.He created the universe, but we cannot.
    I think "Grace received is graced perceived" is incorrect, because people receive of the grace of God everyday and think nothing of it. There are times when God helps me and we do not know it, but we receive of His grace. There are those who receive of the grace of God and attribute it to a false god. So men do receive of the grace of God and do not perceive it. There those who are given life every day and think nothing of God. The only time they use His name is in vain.
    I must disagree with your saying I am misinterpreting Scripture by using Ephesians 2:8. It might be true if the Scripture was hard to read or vague but it i spelled out in Ephesians 2:8.

    I do think it(grace) is a attribute of God. But the behavioral part is a little confusing. But the Bible says God grants(gives) grace, so how can one say otherwise.

    Well, a lost person does not believe or trust in the Word of God till God gives Him faith to do so.
     
  9. Yelsew2

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    cdg
    Creation is a work well beyond anything the created can do, where Grace is a behavior that the created is fully capable of emulating. How can you even make the connection.
    That is because we grew up in the environment of God's grace, and know nothing else! Yes there have been times when it seems that God withheld his grace from us, but those were short durations times when God wanted to hear from us. But even in those times, God's grace was sufficient for us. But what about all the bad things that happen? God never promised us they wouldn't happen so who are we to question God?

    You are right, but I believe you are confusing grace and blessing. They are not the same! God's gracious behavior is constant in accordance with his Grace, no variations; but he also blesses those whom he will, while withholding blessing from others.

    "for by grace are ye saved through faith, and not of yourselves it is the gift of God..." What is the gift of God? If you know the definition of GRACE, and the definition of FAITH, you are compelled to believe that the gift of God is "being saved". So I say it again, You are misinterpreting Ephesians 2:8!

    Again if you know the definition of GRACE, you cannot think of it as anything but a behavioral trait. That which is a behavior in one cannot be given to another! Others can learn the behavior and exhibit it themselves toward others, but cannot give it like one gives a commodity.

    Simply not true! FAITH cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. It is the power of the story contained in the Word of God that convicts the reader of his/her lost condition and the need of a savior. The Holy Spirit works on the human spirit after the human spirit has "some knowledge" to work on. God said "For lack of Knowledge, my people perish!" If there is no knowledge in the human spirit, there can be no regeneration of that spirit! So it is true that FAITH cometh by Hearing and Hearing by the Word of God.

    In case you don't know the definitions of Grace and FAITH, I'll post them for you.
     
  10. cdg

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    Yelsew,

    Again, you can say anything you like about "Grace being a characteristic and therefore not transferable" ,but Scripture(our authority" is clear on the matter. God does give grace. Also, you may believe what you want about "God giving faith" but Scripture is clear.
    Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the Word of God, Faith comes from hearing and hearing from the Word of God and the Word of God from God. Seems as though we are getting into the same old discussion. And you are still disregarding Scripture for logic.
    I made the connection, because there are things God can do that we cannot. He gives grace, we cannot, He created the universe, we cannot do the same. You were using for your argument "If God gives grace, why dont you give me some?" I am saying God can give grace but we cannot.
    You were also implying before "if God gives faith why dont you give me some?"(possibly not your exact same words but same idea). I was saying then also God can give faith but we cannot.
    Thanks for the definitions but I already knew the definitions of grace and faith.
     
  11. Yelsew2

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    If you know the definitions then why do you not use the terms correctly and in accordance with the definition?
     
  12. cdg

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    I am sorry Yelsew, if I have not used them correctly and in accordance with the defintion. My goal has been to use them in accordance with Scripture.
     
  13. Yelsew2

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    How is the definition in scripture different than what is common to man?
     
  14. cdg

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    I am not sure Yelsew. In fact, I am not sure where you say I made the mistake. Please show me where I used the words grace and faith contrary to their defintions. Thank you.
     
  15. Yelsew2

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    According to the definition of Grace, There is nothing in grace that has power to save!

    Faith is not a work! There is no energy expended in faith.

    Neither Grace nor FAITH can be given from one being to another in a "transfer of ownership" transaction.

    Also God has no faith to give according to the definition of faith.
     
  16. cdg

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    OK, now, I understand what you are saying. I wasnt wrong in my use of grace or faith, at least, not unless the Bible is wrong. I used them in the context of the verses I have given you in the past. We have gotten into the same old argument as we debated before. As I did then, so I suggest now, that we end this conversation. Since we both know the views of the other, and since we neither have changed.
     
  17. Yelsew2

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    So, instead of recognizing the problem, you choose to ignore the truth and continue with false doctrine.
     

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