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Grace goes against the grain

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by GH, Jul 14, 2002.

  1. AITB

    AITB <img src="http://www.mildenhall.net/imagemsc/bb128

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    Don, I think that to be remotely Christian, universalism has to say that it is through Jesus' death that all are saved. Else it is obviously not any sort of Christianity anymore.

    Calvinists say God has a way of getting his elect to believe.

    Maybe Christian universalism = Calvinism with the elect = all.

    Just some thoughts...

    love
    Helen
     
  2. GH

    GH New Member

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    Dear Preacher and Don,

    I guess I got a good dose of love because it has sustained me through so many experiences both secular and spiritual. He got a hold of me, filled me with His love and I guess I see through Love colored glasses.

    I know most of the warnings in scripture. This is particularly why I began to study this – because it was inconsistent with the Nature of God as it has been revealed in the scriptures. God speaks now through His Son. Paul called the gospel “the glorious gospel of Jesus Christ.” There can be nothing glorious about it if even one person is lost.

    Fear not, fear not, fear not I hear over and over again in my heart. This is the message of God reconciling the world to Himself – not counting men’s sins against them. Jesus Christ the Savior of All men, especially of those who believe. Over and over again He says in the scriptures that none will be lost.

    John 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish (apollumi), but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish (apollumi), but have everlasting life.

    Please note that those who believe in eternal damnation use John 3:15-18 to show that some will "perish". The word "perish" is NOT an eternal state and is often a present state.

    1Co 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish (apollumi) foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
    "Are saved" is a present state as well as "perish".

    What does the word perish mean? It is the Greek word apollumi. It means to be lost or in a state of destruction. Here are some other uses of (apollumi).

    Mt 10:6 But go rather to the lost (apollumi) sheep of the house of Israel.

    Here Jesus is talking about the present state of the sheep of Israel. They are "lost" (apollumi).

    Mt 10:39 He that findeth his life shall lose (apollumi) it: and he that loseth (apollumi) his life for my sake shall find it.

    Jesus is talking about the present state of finding and losing.

    Mt 18:11 For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost (apollumi).

    Here is another mission statement of Jesus. He came to seek and to save the "lost" (apollumi). Shall Jesus accomplish His mission? "Yes", by all means.

    Lu 15:4 What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose (apollumi) one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost (apollumi), until he find it?

    Please note: until he find it! Love never gives up. Love never fails. God will not give up on the (apollumi) ever. This is the message of God's love.

    Lu 15:6 And when he cometh home, he calleth together his friends and neighbors, saying unto them, Rejoice with me; for I have found my sheep which was lost (apollumi).

    Here we see a sheep who was in the state of (apollumi) and (((((now)))))) it is found!!!!!!!

    The sheep may not have realized the danger she was in. Certainly she didn’t go home. It was the shepherd who noticed she was missing and went out looking until He found her. We don’t know how the sheep felt, we’re not told whether the sheep had ‘decided’ she wanted to go home, but
    we can be pretty sure she was ‘stuck’.

    All we know for sure is what the shepherd did.
    Once the shepherd had found her, she didn’t follow Him home, He picked her up and carried her there.

    And again, the shepherd didn’t so much as chide the sheep for wandering away and getting lost; he just wanted to have a party with his friends to celebrate her return.

    The sheep was helpless – but was that any reason for the shepherd to abandon her? No; because she was so helpless, He made up the lack Himself, went to find her and carried her home.

    Lu 15:8 Either what woman having ten pieces of silver, if she lose (apollumi) one piece, doth not light a candle, and sweep the house, and seek diligently till she find it?

    Here we have a coin in the state of (apollumi) she will seek "till" she finds it!

    Lu 15:24 For this my (prodigal) son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost (apollumi), and is found. And they began to be merry.

    The prodigal son was in the state of (apollumi), but he did not stay there! The (apollumi) was found!

    Lu 19:10 For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost (apollumi).

    Again we see the mission of the Son! To seek and to SAVE the lost (apollumi).

    Will Jesus succeed? Faith says yes!!! Hope says Yes!!! Love most surely says Yes!!!!!!

    Joh 6:12 When they were filled, he said unto his disciples, Gather up the fragments that remain, that nothing be lost (apollumi).

    Jesus is not into any little bit being lost (apollumi). Gather up the fragments.

    Joh 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose (apollumi) nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

    2Co 4:3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost (apollumi):

    The gospel is hid to them who are in the state of (apollumi) right now. That doesn't mean they stay that way forever.

    In the above verses using apollumi, it is easy to see that Christ came to save the appolumi, the apollumi are pursued until they are found, apollumi is not a final state..

    Vengence is Mine, says the Lord. Well, I guess that’s His business. The vengence of God is softer than the hardness of men. He also said, “Love your enemies.” I can’t imagine God commanding me to love my enemies, while he punishes and hates His own.

    But the foolish things of the world hath God chosen, that he may confound the wise; and the weak things of the world hath God chosen, that he may confound the strong.
    ICorinthians Ch.1:27

    No one comes to Jesus unless the Father draw him.

    Why did Jesus say of those who rejected him and spat upon him and mocked him, "Father, forgive them for they know not what they do..." How could Jesus say this if their forgiveness was dependent on their "accepting", "receiving", or "loving" him? This part of scripture shows the utter, amazing, unselfishness of God! That he doesn't love and forgive us on the condition that we do this or that. He loves us from an unselfish heart.

    Well, I’ve done it again - the scripture battle. Lol I’ll never learn!!!!

    In Him, Diane
     
  3. preacher

    preacher New Member

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    Again I ask, who then is being judged....and cast into the lake that burneth with fire at the Great White Throne. The book of Revalation states that it is all that are in death & hell. Who is there if everyone is in Heaven? Why did Jesus preach on hell if no one ever goes there?
     
  4. Don

    Don Well-Known Member
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    Diane, I understand completely what you're saying about love.

    But it's your extension to even those that reject God and Christ that fails to find scriptural support. Oh, yes, the love and the promise is still there; but just as with any other gift, it must be received to be of any effect.

    You make the statement that God seeks out until He finds all; yet, in the vision that He provided John, He describes to us a situation that implies that only those who are found in the book of life will be citizens of the heavenly city.

    He inspired the writer of Hebrews to make the following statement: We are not of those who draw back to perdition (apoleia = destruction, perishing, ruin).

    He stated in yet another parable that the tares and the wheat will grow together; but in the time of harvest, the tares will be bundled to be burned, but the wheat will be taken into the barn.

    And it is this very parable that tells us that the tares are the workers of iniquity, and that they shall be cast into a furnace of fire, where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

    It was He who gave us the analogy (parable) of the casting of the net, which, when pulled in, was examined. The good was kept, but the bad was cast away.

    Isn't it amazing that God Himself, in the flesh, would preach about casting those that work iniquity into a fiery furnace?

    I have to respectfully disagree with you, Diane. There is just way too much scripture, and words from Christ Himself, that point to the fact that not all will attain a place in Heaven. "The road is narrow," and all that....

    Now, because I know of His love, and His great mercy and grace, I spread the Word, not so that people will fear the fiery furnace, but that they might know the love and mercy and grace, and that they can have a place in Heaven.

    [ July 18, 2002, 12:07 AM: Message edited by: Don ]
     
  5. GH

    GH New Member

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    Now, because I know of His love, and His great mercy and grace, I spread the Word, not so that people will fear the fiery furnace, but that they might know the love and mercy and grace, and that they can have a place in Heaven.

    That's all that matters dear brother.
     
  6. preacher

    preacher New Member

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    I am glad that on this board that folks can agree to disagree, & do it without taking offence.
    And now I have to somewhat disagree, not everyone is saved because of a fear of hell, true,
    but no one can be saved without coming to a knowledge that they are a sinner needing a Saviour. They may not understand it, but in some way they will reconize it. Judas never reconized it. Peter & the other apostles did, as did many that followed.
     
  7. GH

    GH New Member

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    Again I ask, who then is being judged....and cast into the lake that burneth with fire at the Great White Throne. The book of Revalation states that it is all that are in death & hell. Who is there if everyone is in Heaven? Why did Jesus preach on hell if no one ever goes there?

    Hi Preacher,

    Didn't Jesus descend into hell after His death to preach the good news? Leading captives free. Doesn't He hold the keys of death and hades?

    Isn't the Great White Throne Judgment for believers? People like us. Isn't it for rewards? Casting our crowns at HIS feet because it is by HIS grace that we even get any crowns. Hopefully, were building with gold, silver and precious stones. Not mixing any leaven in with the batch. Mixing law and grace. The whole batch is ruined if that happens as I understand it. Falling from grace, but not to eternal torment. Doesn't He write in the Book?

    Never anywhere did I say that there weren't any judgments.

    I'd rather be a doorkeeper for a day in the house of the Lord.........

    In Him, Di
     
  8. AITB

    AITB <img src="http://www.mildenhall.net/imagemsc/bb128

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    Originally posted by Don:
    Diane, I understand completely what you're saying about love.

    But it's your extension to even those that reject God and Christ that fails to find scriptural support.


    But I disagree based on Calvinism; Calvinism says that all reject God and Christ except those God enables to believe.

    Why must it be that God enables only some to believe and not all?

    I'm just asking because I've wondered about these things myself. I certainly would love to have a reason to believe God can save all.

    If I don't, I don't. I'm just saying that I can see where others are coming from who have decided it must be, based on His nature, that He does save all.

    Oh, yes, the love and the promise is still there; but just as with any other gift, it must be received to be of any effect.

    "Irresistable grace" says it cannot be refused. Or rather, that it will not be rejected by a single person who has had the eyes of their heart opened by God.

    I have to respectfully disagree with you, Diane. There is just way too much scripture, and words from Christ Himself, that point to the fact that not all will attain a place in Heaven. "The road is narrow," and all that....

    I don't think that quote actually mentions 'heaven', Don [​IMG]

    Does it not say "life"?

    Another thing I have wondered about is what 'life' means. Does it only mean 'life after death'?

    That wouldn't be the 'natural' understanding of it, imo.

    Anyway I'm just trying to make people think...to me that is always a good thing [​IMG]

    love
    Helen
     
  9. preacher

    preacher New Member

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    Some hold that all will be judged at the White Throne, others that there are seperate judgements for believers & unbelievers. I hold to the second, but the first could be right. But regardless which is right it still states of souls, other than the angels who followed after satan, being cast into the lake of fire.Revelation 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

    12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

    13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

    14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

    15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

    Now I also have another question...if the Grace of God extends so freely, then why not to satan & his followers? God created them,& loves them too.
     
  10. AITB

    AITB <img src="http://www.mildenhall.net/imagemsc/bb128

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    Where does it say God loves them?

    I don't think it does.

    The Bible does say God so loved the world and it does say He doesn't want anyone (meaning, humans) to perish.

    So I see a distinction there made between humans and spiritual beings.

    Helen-AITB
     
  11. preacher

    preacher New Member

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    You are right, it doesn't "say". what I was going by were ideas right on this thread. Some are saying that God is love & would'nt let any go to hell...so why would he make a difference between man & angel? He created both perfect, some of the angels fell, & all of mankind fell. Why did they fall? They made choices. Wrong ones.

    In you're response to Don you said this..."Why must it be that God enables only some to believe and not all?"
    He does enable all to believe, THATS part of His grace, it's just that not all CHOOSE to believe.
     
  12. Me2

    Me2 New Member

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    Hi All,
    A Few Comments,...First Revelation of Jesus Christ is THE Story of The Cross..
    The Curse Of The Law Ended At The Cross...Jesus Redeemed Everything Since He Represented Everything..Everyone..
    Hell Ended, All Sin Was Paid For (Penalty).Which Means No Seperation Of God Of Anyone.
    Although Hard To Understand...Revelation is not literal...its A VISION...A DREAM..of What Already Happened!.....
    Parables in the bible are not Literal..yes Told In A Literal Fashion, but Jesus Said That They Are To Be Specifically Interpreted By The Holy Spirit....So You Can Say when you Read Them As Literal Stories, without the Holy Spirit Interpreting Them, That It Is A WRONG Interpretation......Did Jesus Repeat These Stories To His Desiples In "Secret"....He Didnt Have To... They Understood Them The First Time They Heard Them Before All..They Were Being Interpreted By The Spirit....to them personally in real time....

    Why Dont We Ask Some Simple Questions..How Does God Hold Back The Fools From Doing Foolish Things....By Warning Them with Possible Future Retribution ?...without understanding Gods Character..People will Look At God As The Judge..The Judge coming to Administer Justice..
    Without any desire to fully comprehend God As Merciful or forgiving or That Grace Is Not Free! (It Cost God His LIFE). The Fool Only Understands Being Judged by God without Mercy..Living Under An Imaginary Law He Makes Up For Himself....(and believing that God Is Against Him)

    Anyway Salvation is a Process..A Loving Father Saving One Child At A Time..Personally.
    The Means Are There..Guaranteed.... Before you write everyone off to retribution you should look at the way god is looking for his children....Of Reconciling All Back To Himself.

    Me2 [​IMG]
     
  13. Me2

    Me2 New Member

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    Hi Preacher,
    Interesting Question...God Created Satan. Not "Fallen" Though...As Some Believe. He Was Created To Be The Destroyer.........Satan Has A Character That Is Fully Evil.
    If Satan Does Exactly As God Commands..Is Satan Sinning? Are Demons Sinning?
    Does Satan Have Free Will? or Does He Exist To Follow The Rule Of God The Father....

    This Is A Hard Call....But Jesus Did Redeem Everything. And Everything Has To Be Reconciled For God To Be All In All.....

    Satan Is Gods Holy Fall Guy...But Does Satan Go Outside The Parameters That His "Powers" Covers..That Is Everything Evil....He Does His Job..However Lousy..But He Doesnt Know Any Different..He Was Created To Be That Way Specifically...

    Me2
    :eek:
     
  14. AITB

    AITB <img src="http://www.mildenhall.net/imagemsc/bb128

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    Where are the Calvinists???

    Why are statements like this going unchallenged???
     
  15. Star

    Star New Member

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    Alright...I have a couple of questions and I'm not fully awake to think on them myself to be quite honest (my first cup of coffee is being worked on while I type). I'm not assuming anything I'm simply asking.

    Is Kingdom of heaven here or in heaven where most place it (If you know what I'm saying) "up there". Is there a scripture which implies "going there". I mean eternal life I was (first told) meant "go to heaven" not "to know God". Why then the least and the greatest are IN the Kingdom? Why as in Adam all died in Christ all will be made alive since He is in all, through all etc?

    Why is hell seen as a place, if someone makes their bed God is there with them? Without blowing a thousand verses out to deal with, lets keep it simple. Look at the verses speaking of hell in the Old. Look who has the keys to it, look what comes up out of it and where its cast into.

    Then lets look with open eyes here at a few other things (to consider). I posted this before but I'll do this without bombarding with verses.

    Death and hell go where?

    Lake of Fire

    Heres a thought...

    Our God IS a CONSUMING FIRE.

    Now heres the situation with death and hell and what God Himself does which follows.

    Isaiah 28:15 Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves:

    Isaiah 28:18And your covenant with death shall be disannulled, and your agreement with hell shall not stand; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by it.

    God saying HE is deaths DESTRUCTION (Like Me2 has implied in the past, death of death? as in second death?)
    Hosea 13:14 I will ransom them from the power of the grave; I will redeem them from death: O death, I will be thy plagues; O grave, I will be thy destruction: repentance shall be hid from mine eyes.

    So wait a minute here, we have the lake of fire which is the destination of death and hell, but here we have God himself as the destination by means of destruction. He is a consuming fire as scriptures declare.The second death won't hurt the overcomers? We are saved YET BY FIRE one could suffer loss but He himself be saved? Read the verses mentioning fire(Word) and Brimstone (Breath/ Spirit). This has been a long time in investigating these things and hanging onto them and waiting on them as the whole thing opens up here.

    Death swallowed up in life (God)? Mortality (This body of death) clothing itself in immortality.

    Or

    Death swallowed up by fire (God)? Outer man which perish but inner man being renewed in Him? There are many ways to look at this which I am "discovering" by using the various pictures of the words which apply to God Himself and us and seeing them found in Him.

    He is Love and all that is characterized by love and to burn (as we've all been taught) some person for all eternity seems cruel to even me, perhaps God Himself can show me the justice in doing this for eternity without end. Which brings another question... Is the word "eternal" used anywhere in a direct way as being used to state a number of days verses the implication that it is the very nature of God Himself?

    Within this post are more questions then can be tackled by simply glancing at the scriptures to bring about point. Theres alot more but I'll just leave it at this, I'll be pretty busy over the weekend because my sister is moving in and I'm expecting alot of interuptions that might keep me from being here as often as I would like to be. So please be patient with me ok?

    In Him Kim
     
  16. GH

    GH New Member

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    Good Morning,

    At the end of the Revelation of Jesus Christ revealed to John, when everything is all said and done:

    THE SPIRIT AND THE BRIDE SAY COME.

    WHO ARE THEY WELCOMING?

    Just something to ponder, search and seek the Father about.

    Love in Him, Di
     
  17. AITB

    AITB <img src="http://www.mildenhall.net/imagemsc/bb128

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    That is an interesting question, Di [​IMG]

    Maybe the current bride is welcoming the rest of the bride who is not yet the bride.

    thanks,
    love
    Helen-AITB [​IMG]

    [ July 18, 2002, 10:15 AM: Message edited by: AITB ]
     
  18. GH

    GH New Member

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    Dear Helen,

    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]

    My sharing is difficult for me and many times for others to receive.

    I do tend to over do it on the scripture posting. lol And I know that I sound very passionate in my writing. I just can't help it at this phase of my journey/life in Him. I am who I am in Him. I think that is why I focus on love. Well, I've bared my soul, sis.

    Love in Him, Di
     
  19. GH

    GH New Member

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    Hi Kimbolina,

    Your sharing always blesses me. You pose some real interesting questions.

    Our God is a consuming fire always frightened me and I want to learn what this means in light of His love. Searching it out until the Spirit brings Life to it.

    Death is swallowed up in Life. Wow!

    I'll be away from the PC too this weekend. I'm wishing you and all great time. [​IMG]

    Love, the grasshopper
     
  20. Me2

    Me2 New Member

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    Hello AITB,
    So You've Read GH Question.....I Tend To Look At The Bride As Seen In Its Entirety..To Be Completely Gathered In Its Conceptual Form......

    Both Together Have Become The Instrument Of Reconciliation...

    Col 1:20 And through Him having made Peace through the blood of His Cross, It Pleased the Father to Reconcile All Things to Himself through Him, Whether the Things on Earth or the Things In Heaven.
    Col 1:21 And You, who were once alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now he has reconciled
    Col 1:22 In the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy and without blemish. and without charge in his sight.

    2 Co 5:18 and All things Are Of God, Who has Reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given to us the ministry of reconciliation.
    2 Co 5:19 whereas God was in Christ reconciling the World to Himself, Not Imputing their trespesses to them, and putting the word of reconciliation in us.
    2 Co 5:20 Then we are Ambassadors on behalf of Christ, as God exhorting through us, we beseech you on behalf of Christ, Be Reconciled To God.

    The Ministry Of Reconciliation Started At Pentecost Towards Christs Bride First.....And Then The Invitation Spread To The Guests At The Marriage Feast....Everyone Will Attend

    The Bride Will Always Be The Bride And The Guests Will Always Be The Guests......

    Me2
    [​IMG]
     
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