grace or pure sovereignty?

Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by Aki, Feb 26, 2003.

  1. Aki

    Aki
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    with Adam's sin everybody was condemned. all that were in Adam are therefore dead.

    focus on personally committed sins is actually a poor approach, for every man is condemned because of the sin of Adam, and that personal sins do not cause condemnation. rather they are proof of man's depravity.

    is every man therefore to be blamed for his own condemnation? if yes, how?

    if the first sin was imputed to everyone without choice for each man, then how was it grace for God to get everyone totally depraved with the effect that none will choose for God come the general call and that God will give His elects the effectual call as calvinists affirm?

    true, calvinists will say it's grace that God imputed Christ's rigtheousness to God's elects. however, the focus seems to be too quiet about those who are non-elect, that it was not their choice to get condemned and thus depraved, for the first sin was simply sovereignly imputed to them.
     
  2. romanbear

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    Hi Aki; [​IMG]
    Calvinist say that the nonelect are predestine to Hell. Making God unjust for not ever giving them the chance he gives the elect. As far as I know no where in scripture does it say that only the elect will be saved. Although both sides of this debate seem to believe this. The Bible says, All who call on his name will be saved. So what makes only the elect able to call on His name. Calvinist put the cart before the horse when they claim we are regenerated before we have faith. Regenerated means to be born again or saved. No where in the Bible is this ever said. In fact it says the opposite we have to have faith before we are saved.
    Romanbear [​IMG]
     
  3. Eric B

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    I have recently realized that this is actually the heart of the whole issue, because it is why non-Calvinists think unconditional election and preterition are so unfair, and why Calvinists think it is not unfair, but quite "just". Their whole argument (regarding man's real guilt) hinges on the point of "choosing sin in Adam" and the imputation if sin through "federal headship". So if we all "chose sin", then as they repeatedly say "The question is not why He does not save all, but why He saved any" or "...me"! But this is almost like God sees it as if our minds/souls were consciously present in Adam and made the choice for/with him. But does anyone remember consciously making this choice? No, but we shall be consciously punished for it! This would make sense in an Origenic framework which held that all men preexisted in union with God, and that all fell from this state except for Christ. (In fact, Origen's teachings may have helped influence this doctrine). In that case, there would be no problem. Everybody had their chance and like Lucifer and his angels (who are offered no chance of redemption), made their conscious willful choice to leave the perfection and bliss of union with the Father (Christ was the only such soul who didn't, and this is what lead him to become the Son of God[!!]), so God will give the "grace" of [another] chance to "whomever He will". Calvinism makes perfect sense, then. But we can begin to see that this is basically making man more than a frail creature born into time. Man transcends our world of time just as God does, so he can be judged on His level. But notice how non-Calvinists never pity the fallen angels whose fates are sealed. Why? Because "to whom much is given, much is expected" as Luke 12:48 tells us. The whole problem with this position is it actually has God being harder on men than on these angels who actually were consciously present at their fall.

    What Rom.5 says is that we get our sin nature from Adam. Not that we are imputed with his choice or were somehow "present" when it occurred or anything like that. This leads some to logically conclude that the unborn can be reprobated as well.

    [ February 26, 2003, 02:23 PM: Message edited by: Eric B ]
     
  4. Ray Berrian

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    Aki,

    I reluctantly must point out the most glaring error of your post. You said, ' . . . personal sins do not cause condemnation.' First, I do agree with you that the Adamic nature, which we all have' is enough to send us to Hell. But, if you read in Revelation 20:12 you will see at the judgment of sinners, God opens 'the books' the record of all of the sinners sins, and they are ' . . . judged according to their {wicked} works.'

    If what you said were true all anyone would have to do would be to be baptized Catholic and as they wrongfully teach, the 'original sin' would be washed away. And according to your premise, a person then could carelessly sin and God could not touch him for his iniquity and violation against Almighty God.
     
  5. The Archangel

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    Aki and others

    The things that I am going to write, talk about, etc. are difficult things. I must admit, as a Calvinist, I don't like that the Bible speaks of things the way it does. In fact, I'd rather that things were different, perhaps even Arminian. However, I don't get to make that choice. Part and parcel to being a Christian is bringing ourselves under submission to God. Since God's word reveals some hard things, even if we don't like them, it is best for us to submit to God and His word in these matters.

    First of all, every one is condemned for the sin of Adam, that is true. However, one is liable for their own individual sins as well. The individual's sins carry consequences and punishments just as the "original" sin which has been imputed to us does.

    Yes, every person is to blame for their own sin and Adam's sin.

    God did not "Totally depraved" everyone. This was the choice of Adam and Eve. They took the apple. Did God ordain or allow that it happen? Absolutley yes! However, He (God) did not cause it.

    More to come from other posts!

    Blessings to all!

    Archangel
     
  6. Pastor Larry

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    The justice of God does not demand this. God would be just in sending everyone to hell. There is nothing that requires him to offer salvation to any of us, much less all of us. The non-elect have the chance to be saved; they refuse of their own free will.

    The electing and enabling grace of God.

    It means the first, not the second. "Saved" is a broad term for everything from election to final glorification. REgenerated is the narrow term.

    It says we are to have faith before we are saved; it does not say anything about regeneration in this regard. A very solid case can be made for regeneration preceding faith. Regeneration is not the same as salvation. Regeneration is the impartation of spiritual life to the spiritually dead.
     
  7. The Archangel

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    Romanbear,

    Where does it say God must give anyone a chance? Isa 45:9 says, "Woe to {the one} who quarrels with his Maker-- An earthenware vessel among the vessels of earth! Will the clay say to the potter, 'What are you doing?' Or the thing you are making {say,} 'He has no hands'?

    Also Romans 9 speaks to this: 14 What should we say then? Is there injustice with God? Absolutely not! 15 For He tells Moses: I will show mercy to whom I show mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion. 16 So then it does not depend on human will or effort, but on God who shows mercy. 17 For the Scripture tells Pharaoh: For this reason I raised you up: so that I may display My power in you, and that My name may be proclaimed in all the earth. 18 So then, He shows mercy to whom He wills, and He hardens whom He wills. 19 You will say to me, therefore, "Why then does He still find fault? For who can resist His will?" 20 But who are you--anyone who talks back to God? Will what is formed say to the one who formed it, "Why did you make me like this?" 21 Or has the potter no right over His clay, to make from the same lump one piece of pottery for honor and another for dishonor? 22 And what if God, desiring to display His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience objects of wrath ready for destruction? 23 And what if He did this to make known the riches of His glory on objects of mercy that He prepared beforehand for glory-- 24 on us whom He also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?


    Then, why is there an "elect?" Why does the Bible in many passages speak of an "elect?"

    Then what of Romans 3? 10 as it is written: There is no one righteous, not even one; 11 there is no one who understands, there is no one who seeks God. 12 All have turned away, together they have become useless; there is no one who does good, there is not even one. 13 Their throat is an open grave; they deceive with their tongues. Vipers' venom is under their lips. 14 Their mouth is full of cursing and bitterness. 15 Their feet are swift to shed blood; 16 ruin and wretchedness are in their paths, 17 and the path of peace they have not known. 18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.

    How is it, then, that someone seeks after God when the Bible says that none seek after Him? It the Bible wrong? May it never be! What, then, is the only other conclusion given the following facts:

    1. No one seeks after God.

    2. People do become Christians

    How is this possible? John 6 is helpful:60 Therefore, when many of His disciples heard this, they said, "This teaching is hard! Who can accept it?" 61 Jesus, knowing in Himself that His disciples were complaining about this, asked them, "Does this offend you? 62 Then what if you were to observe the Son of Man ascending to where He was before? 63 The Spirit is the One who gives life. The flesh doesn't help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life. 64 But there are some among you who don't believe." (For Jesus knew from the beginning those who would not believe and the one who would betray Him.) 65 He said, "This is why I told you that no one can come to Me unless it is granted to him by the Father." 66 From that moment many of His disciples turned back and no longer walked with Him.

    3. It must be, given points 1. and 2., that God intervenes and grants unto men the ability to seek after Him. This is called regeneration.

    Regeneration must come before redemption. This must be the case because none seek after God. It is God who seeks.

    Blessings,

    Archangel
     
  8. The Archangel

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    to all,

    I had a passing thought about the topic heading of this thread--grace or pure sovereignty.

    If God was not totally, purely, and completely sovereign, there would be no grace.

    Interesting thought!

    Archangel
     
  9. Ray Berrian

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    The old Calvinistic extra-Biblical, illustration and allusion of the "decomposing corpse theory" only surfaces because of this theory in theology. Yes, we are separated from God as sinners, but He graciously offers His grace to all who will believe. [Acts 2:21;16:31] No other supernatural event takes place before one is save, including regeneration. When the sinner believes he or she is then renewed by the Holy Spirit. Otherwise, the sinner is forced to be saved and then he must 'pack up' for Heaven, as it were, because God engineered the event. 'Packing up' is necessary because faith is on its way.

    Respectfully . . . .
     
  10. Yelsew

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    You must define "dead". If you do not this conversation cannot take place among the living!
     
  11. KenH

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    Unable to respond to stimuli by one's own power.
     
  12. William C

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    Unable to respond to stimuli by one's own power. </font>[/QUOTE]So when Paul says that we have died to sin that means we, as Christian men, are physically unable to respond to those twins on that God forsaken Beer commerical? [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]
     
  13. KenH

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    That is true in our soul, but not in our flesh. Our flesh has not died to sin yet.
     
  14. William C

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    That is true in our soul, but not in our flesh. Our flesh has not died to sin yet. </font>[/QUOTE]You are taking the analogy of death and trying to make it mean "totally unable to respond to God's call of the Holy Spirit through the gospel presentation." That is a huge leap there Ken, especially when the word "dead" doesn't always carry that connotation, as we see by the example of those twins! [​IMG]

    Can you provide some biblical support for "dead" having to mean what you claim it must mean in this context? Couldn't faith be the means by which we are brought out of spiritual death?
     
  15. KenH

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    Nope. The means is regeneration, being born from above, by the power of the Holy Spirit, not by the power of corrupt man.
     
  16. William C

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    Nope. The means is regeneration, being born from above, by the power of the Holy Spirit, not by the power of corrupt man. </font>[/QUOTE]Yes, but the means of regeneration is faith.

    The Spirit does not indwell a man without faith. Yes the Spirit calls first but the man must accept that call by faith before the Spirit will indwell him.
     
  17. KenH

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    1) That is a pure falsehood.

    2) We are not discussing the indwelling of the Holy Spirit - we are talking about the beginning of the conversion process - regeneration.
     
  18. Yelsew

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    I think AKI owes us his definition!
     
  19. Ray Berrian

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    Every Christian believes that only God can regenerate a sinner. That is what grace is all about. The question is will He regenerate a soul without a faith/trust in Christ. The theological correct thing is to say no. When Jesus approached the church of Laodicea He knocked at the door. [Revelation 3:20] When He approaches the hearts door of the sinner He also knocks through the dynamic of the Person of the Holy Spirit. The condition is the same as with the Laodicean Church, ' . . . if any man {sinner} hear My voice, and open the door, I will come into him.'

    Someone said, God is a gentleman He knocks at the life of the sinner; He does not bust the door down and enter, if He is not wanted in the human life. What I am saying is a forced regeneration would not even require faith after the fact. If Christ enters the life--that's that! No faith would be necessary; we would merely go on in the Christian life, as human robots, without trusting in His greatness.
     
  20. KenH

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    1) You are in error. The correct Biblical answer is yes.

    2) I have heard so many people teach that error during the past year I could just about puke. That statement may not be blasphemous but it must be right next door to it.

    3)You do not understand the purpose of regeneration. Regeneration is the means for a sinner to repent and believe and to worship God in spirit and in truth. Without regeneration a person will never repent and believe and offer acceptable worship to God.
     

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