Grace

What I am saying is why did she choose? What quality about her helped her make the right choice? Is she more loving, intelligent, a better person than Joe Shmoe that did not make the right choice. Is Joe just more evil and she more good?

The traditional reformed position says "Why not her?" God makes the choice and chooses whom He pleases according to His will, for His glory.

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IHS,
cbc

 

Chafer is the founder of Dallas Theological Seminary. He had nothing to do with Southwestern (founded by B.H. Carroll).

I think many of you would be surprised to see that historically many Baptists taught that regeneration precedes salvation. A good book on this is By His Grace and For His Glory by Tom Nettles. Monergism is the Biblical view.

 

This is not an answer.

The person who did not choose had free will as well did they not?

Why did YOU exercise YOUR free will to accept Christ while another person did not?

Why did you respond...?

While these "fools" do not?

Does your calling them "fools" imply that you were wise? If you were wise enough to choose well while they were "fools", how can that not be either a) God's doing when He made you like you are or b) merit on your part?

Yes.

No. No more than by yours. Do you not believe that God knew they would sin when He made them? Could it have been any other way since Christ was slain from the foundation of the world?

I believe that Adam and Eve had free will. I believe they exercised that free will to rebel against God. I believe that all people unless regenerated by the Holy Spirit will do likewise of their own free will.

I believe that regeneration is a miracle no less extraordinary than Christ raising Lazarus. Like the case with Lazarus, Christ is not guilty of the fate of one person for choosing to extend and unmerited gift to another.

Jesus didn't raise all dead people, only Lazarus. Under your presuppositions, He was unjust for not giving everyone an equal opportunity.

No. It is a great mystery of scripture no matter where you come down on this.

God didn't cause them to sin. Yet His eternal purpose was contingent upon them sinning. The plan for man's redemption existed before Eve sinned. These three things are scriptural facts. I simply accept them and deal with them in the best way my finite mind can.

Of course, that isn't me or any other calvinist I know speaking but rather you attempting to put false words in our mouth.

TS, Don't make assumptions about "what" I am "talking about". I didn't say nor suggest anything of the sort.

Please be honest enough to deal with what I have said and not where you presume my arguments should go in order for you to be right.

 

That's not what I am talking... I am talking about grace- unmerited favor. There is nothing more loving than the act of God extending such great love due to absolutely no merit on our part... not even the merit of a "good decision".

You are making up words and putting them into my mouth. Can you not simply answer my arguments reasonably, honestly, and scripturally?

Do you believe God is guilty for condemning those who die never hearing the gospel? That is the same sort of accusation you have made against me.

The majority of the world right now is dying without being offered grace. Is God not able to send them a witness?

God condemns the unrighteous because they exercise their free will to sin and reject Him. Romans 1 tells us that even those who do not hear the witness of scripture are guilty because of what they should have discerned from nature.

You are using very offensive language in reference to the doctrine of grace taught in scripture.

If you don't want to agree then fine. But there is no excuse for the type of rhetoric you are resorting to. It is however an indication that you really cannot answer my scriptural objections to what you believe.

When you can't win the debate... start a fight?

If you are contending that it was the merit of your choice rather than God's grace that saved you... I won't say it.

That's inane.

God through regeneration FREES us from the bondage of sin so that we will love Him. This is scriptural. The idea that man will choose to love God in his natural sinful state is not scriptural.

Never said He did. He freed men to love Him.

He gave men the ability to follow Him. Yes. Follow that line of reasoning all the way back to the final "Why?".

It wasn't an offer. It was a declaration of what was going to be.

He didn't say "Would you like to follow me?"

He commanded "Follow me" then promised "I will be your God."

 

Bump to TS

 

Hambricba,

Thank you for catching that re Chafer and Dallas Theological. My head was on Southwestern when I added my ().

 

Donna- you wrote quote:
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Originally posted by TexasSky:
"So in essence God offers the grace of salvation to those whom He pleases. "

Yes, and the bible says that God desires that all men be saved.
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Yes, but not all are saved. That fact gives your argument less strength.

In fact, it gives my argument TOTAL strength and destroys yours.

MY argument is that God desires that all men are saved, so He offers grace to all, and allows all men to choose to accept or reject that grace.

YOUR argument either makes God a liar, OR makes "saving all men" beyond God's capabilities. Either way - you're obviously flawed in some of assessment.

You just admited, "God desires that all men be saved." You just admited that not all men are saved. Now - either God lies when he says he desires all men be saved OR God desires it but doesn't have the power to do it OR God desires it, but ALLOWS the final choice to be acceptance or rejection.

I choose to believe that God is all powerful, and therefor, acting on His desire OFFERS (not forces) grace to ALL men (per His word), and ON THE AUTHORITY OF HIS POWER - PERMITS or ALLOWS men to choose acceptance or rejection.

 

I'm not at all surprised at how many men taught that regeneration preceded salvation. Students often repeat the errors of the teachers because the students don't think through what they are being taught.

I believe, like a great many men of God believe, that God knows everything, and that knowing everything, He knows your heart better than you do. Ergo - even though He offers you grace, He knows you will reject it, but He doesn't FORCE grace upon you, nor does He FORCE you to make the choice that leads you to hell.

He ~allows~ you to choose Christ or hell.

I believe this is totally supported by scripture.

Scripture is very clear on the fact that all men have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.

Scipture is very clear that Christ came for the WORLD and for Sinners. Not "part of the world," not "a few people," not "some of them."

Scripture is very clear that ANY who believe on Christ will be saved. The Calvinist says, "Well, you can't believe if you haven't heard." True - you can't. God covered that.

He desires that all men repent and be saved. He sends his message of grace unto salvation to all men. Both scriptures from God's word.

So - why AREN'T all men saved?
Because "He stands at the door and knocks and if anyman open the door." MAN - - - - - He presents himself.

"If any believe and call upon " - - - - You HAVE a responsibility in this.

"They perish because they refused the truth."

To say that your choice to commit the one sin that is punishable to eternal damnation is actually God's fault is shameful.

 

"No. It is a great mystery of scripture no matter where you come down on this.
"

No, its not a mystery.

God does NOT cause man to reject His son.
God ALLOWS men to accept or reject His son.

You make it a mystery because it is "easier" to say, "It couldn't be helped."

It is EASIER to ignore the great commission if you have made up your mind that God has already decided, so your words and prayers are useless.

It is EASIER to feel special and proud if you think of yourself as "a special chosen group."

The bible says we are ALL sinners. But, hey, we're not JUST sinners? We're SPECIAL sinners! Christ died for US, but not for THEM.

That's unbiblical.

Christ died for ALL men.
Christ came that the WORLD through Him might be saved.
Christ offers grace to all men, but Christ ALLOWS men to accept Him or reject Him.

 

It is more shameful and very dishonest to mis-state someone else's views the way you did with this sentence.

 

You are still evading the question TS.

Why did you choose to accept while someone else rejected?


"Because I had a free will choice" isn't a legitimate answer. The fact that you have a choice is not in question.

What is in question is why you chose as you did while someone presumably no worse a sinner in God's eyes than you rejected the offer of salvation.

 

You have a habit of answering questions/arguments that weren't proposed.

Either you aren't reading the questions or else you know that you don't have a good answer.

It is a mystery.

God didn't cause men to reject Him but He knew even before He created the world that they would. There are a whole host of questions that arise from this fact that neither arminians nor calvinists answer all that well.

One being: "Why would God create people that He knew He would some day condemn to hell?"

First, the reference was to original sin.

Second, What "couldn't be helped."? Are you saying that God didn't know that Adam and Eve would sin before He created them?

Hardly. And history bears this out quite well. John Knox, Jonathan Edwards, William Carey, and Charles Spurgeon are just a few examples of extraordinary winners of souls who recognized the biblical truth of the doctrines of grace.

We don't ignore the great commission at all. God has commanded that we preach the gospel... He knows who will be saved. We don't. And that is true of your beliefs as well unless you are saying that God is not omniscient.

You know... maybe our conversation would be more civil and edifying if you would concern yourself with expressing your own views and questions concerning them rather than demonizing your opponents by putting words in their mouths and thoughts in their heads.

Those who understand their election are humbled rather than proud. We know that our salvation was because God spiritually resurrected us... and not because we were smart enough or good enough to make the right decision.

It's also your words... not mine... and not calvinists that post here.

Then you're a universalist?... or was Christ's sacrifice really not sufficient for "ALL men"?

Calvinists believe that it was sufficient for all men but only efficient for the elect.

We have come full circle.

Why then do some men accept while others reject. If God does nothing to effect that individual choice then it most come wholly from within the individual, right?

 

Scott,

I have answered your question a dozen times over. I even put my answer in the language of the third grade in hopes you wouldn't miss it.

I now can only conclude that unless you see the words that you want to see you will not accept that you have received my answer.

As to your other comments. You said, "It is a mystery." I said, "It is not." You said, "You are reading things into it."

That is pure bull-headedness on your part.

You say it is a mystery.
I say it is not.

You say, "We just don't know why."

I say, "We do know why. The bible tells us. God sent his message of grace to all men. The ones that perish do so because they refused the truth. That's all in scritpure. I can't help that you don't like that answer.

You ask, "Why did I love when others did not?" Why does anyone accept any love offered to them?
Why does anyone reject any love offered to them?
In my lifetime I've known men who thought they loved me enough to ask me to be their wife. I turned them down because I didn't love them. Other women accepted their love and married them. By your logic, I must have somehow been manipulated by these men into not loving them.

That's just ridiculous.

God IS love.
That's from the bible.

Love is patient, love is kind, love is slow to anger, love keeps no record of wrong doings.... ALL of THESE are from the bible.

I responded to the call of a loving God.
Others refused the call of that same loving God.
That does not mean, as you would have people believe, that God never called to them.
It only means that they chose not to respond to Him.

Just as EVE chose not to respond to His instructions in the Garden of Eden.

You remember Eve.
She entered the world before sin did.
Had a perfect life.
Disobeyed God.

I suppose, somehow you have managed to convince yourself that it isn't REALLY Eve's fault. She couldn't help herself. I suppose, by your theory, that God INTENDED to toss Eve out of Eden before He ever put her IN Eden, and it wasn't SATAN's fault or EVE'S fault that sin entered the world. That was how God originally planned it. By your theory, every rebellion man ever made against God was actually because God intended for man to rebel?

No.
God intended to offer love to man, and God allowed man to obey or disobey. Just as most loving parents give their children the chance to stumble so they can learn to walk.

I'm really sorry for you that you can't see that God is Omnipotent and omnisciencent enough to ALLOW men to love Him without forcing them.

The biggest problem with your theory is that it implies that God only loved some.

You say, "Well, God loved you first!"
Of COURSE He did.
That's why He sent Christ.
But He didn't love me MORE than He loved the man who refused. He loved the saint who accepts Him as Lord and who strives to serve Him and He loves the sinner who keeps bumbling along without even noticing Him.

He LOVES all.
He CALLS all.

You keep trying to box Him in. Trying to reduce Him to human levels. You can't imagine someone not loving someone who loved them first, so you just assume that it was all an act of random choice on God's part. That assumption really boils down to you saying God really ISN'T loving OR merciful. You make God into some kind of Casino Odds maker. The bible doesn't. The bible doesn't say, "Oh, He loves these, but not these. Without any reason at all."

That isn't what Christ says.

Christ says that God will leave the 99 to find the 1.
Christ says that God will kill the fatted calf for the lost son's return.
The bible says God loved the WORLD. The sinless, hopeless world was GIVEN hope through His son.

Do you REALLY believe that the same Christ who, while bleeding to death on Calvary pleaded with the Father, "Father forgive them, for they know not what they do." Would say, "Shrug, let that one burn in hell. I don't really care about that one?"

THAT is the MAIN flaw in Clavinism.
It tries to LIMIT the scope of God's love for mankind.
It tries to limit the POWER of God.
ONLY God ~could~ offer "choice" to mankind.

I hope, and pray, that someday you get to see the full glory of a God that loves EVERYONE, EVEN those who reject Him. A God that loves ENOUGH to give you freedom instead of enslavement. A God that does not say, "Bow down before me and pretend to love me," but rather says, "I love you. Let me save you from your fate."

Until you know that God, you only know a tiny piece of God.

 

And before anyone gets the wrong idea.

No - I am NOT a Universalist.
Christ said you must believe on Him to be saved.
I take Christ at His word.
Salavation is through the son, and requires belief in the son.

 

No. You haven't. First, I haven't asked you dozens of times. Second, you have yet to answer the simple question of why you think that you accepted Christ while someone else rejects him.

You said something to the effect of "because I had a free will choice". That's like: Q:"Why did you choose the Ford over the Chevy?" A: "Because I had a choice..."

I agree you had a choice as do all people. Calvinists believe this. Where we part company is on the issue of what ultimately causes people to accept or reject salvation.

I will accept and debate any answer that actually answers the question.

What ultimately causes one person to choose to accept salvation while another rejects it? It is a simple, direct question.

I will give my answer. One accepts because God in His grace quickens their dead spirit. The person then willfully believes in Christ. The other rejects because he willfully continues in his sin, rebellion, and disbelief.

For heaven's sake TS, LOOK AT THE CONTEXT OF WHAT WE WERE TALKING ABOUT!!!!!

We were talking about original sin.

It is a mystery why God would create man knowing that he would sin. If you know why God did that other than it somehow will bring ultimate glory to Him, please enlighten us all.

Sure is. Your analogy doesn't address the issue the way you have portrayed it.

Let's work with it though... you made those decisions. Why? Because you evaluated the option and thought "no" was the correct answer, right? Credit or fault for the decision is yours right?

That cannot apply to salvation. If you can claim credit for the choice then it is by merit, not grace, that you are saved.

So they made a "bad" choice while you made a "good" choice, right?

That is merit TS.

BTW, calvinists believe in both a general call and an effectual call. In fact, we incorporate this much better than you all do. Under your system, it would be unfair if everyone didn't get an equal opportunity since everyone possesses enough goodness in and of themselves to accept the offer of salvation.

We recognize that none of us have the goodness to accept Christ until He regenerates our nature.

Not correct. She did respond... in sin.

Don't suppose if you don't know. Ask.

Eve, like every person, is responsible for her own sin. God is not the author of sin. God doesn't cause anyone to sin.

You can't deal with the inconsistencies between your beliefs and scripture by attempting to cast stones at me.

 

Think it through TS.

Did God know that Satan would rebel and tempt Eve? Did God know that Eve would sin? Did God know that men would rebel? Which of these things do you contend that He didn't know?

He did know. Yet He still created Satan, Eve, and men.

Are you saying that God did not know that Eve would sin?

If you are then please simply answer that one question and I will be done with you. Open theism is heresy.

I am really sorry for you tht you can't see that God is omnipotent and omniscient and gracious and merciful enough to free men from the bondage of their sin so that they will love Him.

Your argument is very much like seeing a man left to die tied to a post in the desert. Your savior would say, "I allow you to follow me to my cabin for food and water... but I won't force you by taking off the binding."

Or better yet, like approaching the grave of Lazarus and saying "Come on out if you want to but I won't force you to by performing the miracle of quickening your dead body".

The biggest problem I have with your theory is that it requires human merit to accomplish salvation.

The second biggest problem I have with your view is that it is usually premised on the idea that the purpose of creation is the salvation of man. It isn't. The purpose of creation is to glorify God.

I don't understand it completely but God is glorified by displays of His justice and wrath as well as His mercy and grace.

We are told that God hates the unrighteous and specifically that He hated Esau. We have to deal with these facts.

But God also demonstrates love toward all men by the blessings He bestows through general grace.

Then He must have chosen you because of your merit, right?

Nope. That would be you. I accept the fact that He can sovereignly save who He wishes whether I understand His purpose or not. You have judged His choice as unfair.

All of this is false.... and another case of you putting arguments into my mouth because you cannot answer the real problems with your view.

If you want to know what I believe then please ask me rather than telling me.

He also said that His sheep hear His voice and follow.

Did the man choose to have his father or did his father choose to have him? What made him a son to begin with?

In context, that same passage says that a man cannot enter the kingdom without being born again of the Spirit.

The same question is equally binding upon you.

You accuse me of believing that God forces people to be saved but presumably we agree that He could force people to believe.

If He can but doesn't, does He not care?

Nope. It simply recognizes what scripture says and favors that over your concept of what would be fair of God if He loves the world/mankind.

I do believe He gives freedom. It is you that refuses to recognize that this is truly necessary.

Wrong. Completely.

Until you deal with the flaws in your own view rather than attacking my views with false assertions and suggestions, you will be denying scriptural truth and thus know "only a tiny piece of God."

You have some gall suggesting that I only know a "tiny piece of God" because I disagree with YOU.

 

Scott,

I knew you were going to write what you write, but it doesn't mean I made you write it.