Graven Images

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by ktn4eg, Jan 4, 2005.

  1. ktn4eg

    ktn4eg
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    A Catholic reference bible I once read justified their use of statues by stating that the cherubim (cherubs) that God commanded Moses to have erected and placed over the mercy seat in the tabernacle where, in fact, graven images.

    Anyone care to show me how that argument can be thoroughly disproven using specific OT scripture and nothing else?
     
  2. Archeryaddict

    Archeryaddict
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    OK lets read what Gods commandment is
    Exedous 20: 4. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
    5. Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;
    6. And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

    Gods commandment plainly tells we are not to worship any Graven image.
    No one ever worshipped the Ark of the Testimony
    in fact unless it was being transported no one ever even saw it besides the levitical priest, only was he allowed into the Holy of Holys and it was Not to worship the Cheribums on the mercy seat but to offer an acceptable sacrifice for the sins of the people to God who Sat upon the mercy seat.

    Exodous 25:17. And thou shalt make a mercy seat of pure gold: two cubits and a half shall be the length thereof, and a cubit and a half the breadth thereof.
    18. And thou shalt make two cherubims of gold, of beaten work shalt thou make them, in the two ends of the mercy seat.
    19. And make one cherub on the one end, and the other cherub on the other end: even of the mercy seat shall ye make the cherubims on the two ends thereof.
    20. And the cherubims shall stretch forth their wings on high, covering the mercy seat with their wings, and their faces shall look one to another; toward the mercy seat shall the faces of the cherubims be.
    21. And thou shalt put the mercy seat above upon the ark; and in the ark thou shalt put the testimony that I shall give thee.
    22. And there I will meet with thee, and I will commune with thee from above the mercy seat, from between the two cherubims which are upon the ark of the testimony, of all things which I will give thee in commandment unto the children of Israel.
     
  3. Archeryaddict

    Archeryaddict
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    Instructions for entering the Holy place is found in the book of Leviticus.
    the word Leviticus is pertaning to the Levites which is appropriate since the Isrilite priests were Levites
    the Book of Leviticus is the third book of the penteteuch. (third Book of the Law)
    Leviticus is a continuation of the story in the book of exodous which begins with Isreal completing construction of the tabernacle.
    the book of leviticous is basically a hand book of instructions for the priests was given during the one year encampment at Mount Sinai.

    Leviticus 16
    1. And the Lord spake unto Moses after the death of the two sons of Aaron, when they offered before the Lord, and died;
    2. And the Lord said unto Moses, Speak unto Aaron thy brother, that he come not at all times into the holy place within the vail before the mercy seat, which is upon the ark; that he die not: for I will appear in the cloud upon the mercy seat.
    3. Thus shall Aaron come into the holy place: with a young bullock for a sin offering, and a ram for a burnt offering.
    4. He shall put on the holy linen coat, and he shall have the linen breeches upon his flesh, and shall be girded with a linen girdle, and with the linen mitre shall he be attired: these are holy garments; therefore shall he wash his flesh in water, and so put them on.
    5. And he shall take of the congregation of the children of Israel two kids of the goats for a sin offering, and one ram for a burnt offering.
    6. And Aaron shall offer his bullock of the sin offering, which is for himself, and make an atonement for himself, and for his house.
    7. And he shall take the two goats, and present them before the Lord at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation.
    8. And Aaron shall cast lots upon the two goats; one lot for the Lord, and the other lot for the scapegoat.
    9. And Aaron shall bring the goat upon which the Lord's lot fell, and offer him for a sin offering.
    10. But the goat, on which the lot fell to be the scapegoat, shall be presented alive before the Lord, to make an atonement with him, and to let him go for a scapegoat into the wilderness.
    11. And Aaron shall bring the bullock of the sin offering, which is for himself, and shall make an atonement for himself, and for his house, and shall kill the bullock of the sin offering which is for himself:
    12. And he shall take a censer full of burning coals of fire from off the altar before the Lord, and his hands full of sweet incense beaten small, and bring it within the vail:
    13. And he shall put the incense upon the fire before the Lord, that the cloud of the incense may cover the mercy seat that is upon the testimony, that he die not:
    14. And he shall take of the blood of the bullock, and sprinkle it with his finger upon the mercy seat eastward; and before the mercy seat shall he sprinkle of the blood with his finger seven times.
    15. Then shall he kill the goat of the sin offering, that is for the people, and bring his blood within the vail, and do with that blood as he did with the blood of the bullock, and sprinkle it upon the mercy seat, and before the mercy seat:
    16. And he shall make an atonement for the holy place, because of the uncleanness of the children of Israel, and because of their transgressions in all their sins: and so shall he do for the tabernacle of the congregation, that remaineth among them in the midst of their uncleanness.
    17. And there shall be no man in the tabernacle of the congregation when he goeth in to make an atonement in the holy place, until he come out, and have made an atonement for himself, and for his household, and for all the congregation of Israel.
    18. And he shall go out unto the altar that is before the Lord, and make an atonement for it; and shall take of the blood of the bullock, and of the blood of the goat, and put it upon the horns of the altar round about.
    19. And he shall sprinkle of the blood upon it with his finger seven times, and cleanse it, and hallow it from the uncleanness of the children of Israel.
    20. And when he hath made an end of reconciling the holy place, and the tabernacle of the congregation, and the altar, he shall bring the live goat:
    21. And Aaron shall lay both his hands upon the head of the live goat, and confess over him all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions in all their sins, putting them upon the head of the goat, and shall send him away by the hand of a fit man into the wilderness:
    22. And the goat shall bear upon him all their iniquities unto a land not inhabited: and he shall let go the goat in the wilderness.
    23. And Aaron shall come into the tabernacle of the congregation, and shall put off the linen garments, which he put on when he went into the holy place, and shall leave them there:
    24. And he shall wash his flesh with water in the holy place, and put on his garments, and come forth, and offer his burnt offering, and the burnt offering of the people, and make an atonement for himself, and for the people.
    25. And the fat of the sin offering shall he burn upon the altar.
    26. And he that let go the goat for the scapegoat shall wash his clothes, and bathe his flesh in water, and afterward come into the camp.
    27. And the bullock for the sin offering, and the goat for the sin offering, whose blood was brought in to make atonement in the holy place, shall one carry forth without the camp; and they shall burn in the fire their skins, and their flesh, and their dung.
    28. And he that burneth them shall wash his clothes, and bathe his flesh in water, and afterward he shall come into the camp.
    29. And this shall be a statute for ever unto you: that in the seventh month, on the tenth day of the month, ye shall afflict your souls, and do no work at all, whether it be one of your own country, or a stranger that sojourneth among you:
    30. For on that day shall the priest make an atonement for you, to cleanse you, that ye may be clean from all your sins before the Lord.
    31. It shall be a sabbath of rest unto you, and ye shall afflict your souls, by a statute for ever.
    32. And the priest, whom he shall anoint, and whom he shall consecrate to minister in the priest's office in his father's stead, shall make the atonement, and shall put on the linen clothes, even the holy garments:
    33. And he shall make an atonement for the holy sanctuary, and he shall make an atonement for the tabernacle of the congregation, and for the altar, and he shall make an atonement for the priests, and for all the people of the congregation.
    34. And this shall be an everlasting statute unto you, to make an atonement for the children of Israel for all their sins once a year. And he did as the Lord commanded Moses.
     
  4. Archeryaddict

    Archeryaddict
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    In short the Cheribums were Not Graven Images (Idols) that were worshipped they were to symbolize possibly the arch angels who guard Gods Throne in heaven.
     
  5. rjprince

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    This is also a good illustration of the fact that it is not wrong to make a statue of a horse, so long as it is not an object of worship.

    No doubt about it, the images of the RCC are objects of worship. In South America, statues of the virgin Mary have bleeding nail holes in her hands!!! In areas where evangelical Christianity is strong, they would not dare try that! Would lose too many to us.
     
  6. ktn4eg

    ktn4eg
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    I think what this Catholic reference bible's point was not necessarily the "bow down" as it was the "Thou shalt not MAKE," but this is just a guess.

    The following is not intended to PROVE anything, but, from the first century A.D. on, does the name of ANY world-renowned painter or sculptor that had an historically Jewish heritage readily come to mind?

    Right off the top of my head, I know of none (not that there ISN'T one, mind you).

    This is, of course, ONLY an observation. But I CAN think of people who had historically Jewish last names that made/make significant contributions in such realms as philosophy, physics, music (especially that of performing), the social sciences, politics, etc.

    Dare I ask why it appears to be thus?
     
  7. rjprince

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    Ktn4eg,

    Can not answer re the Jewish artist issue, but can say that since the Assyrian dispersion and the Babylonian captivity, the Jews have pretty much left idols alone! Can't find much idolatry among the Jews since that time!
     

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