Great Questions Thread [2], where You Question, I Answer according to Scripture [KJB]

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by One Baptism, Apr 12, 2015.

  1. One Baptism

    One Baptism
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    The Great Questions Thread [2], where You Question, I Answer according to Scripture [KJB]

    The Purpose, please Read before posting! Thank you!

    Where You get to post the Question (singular, per post) to Myself, in matters of Scripture alone (nothing of personal nature (and I will not respond to any that are of such a kind, for the thread is not about me, but about Scripture, thank you kindly.)),

    and I get to Answer the Question in charity [1 Cor 13] according to Scripture [KJB, preferred].

    Please post only One Question at a time, per post, in all cases, and please wait for a response before posting any further Question. Thank you!

    Please be aware, that do to the nature of this thread, I may not be able to respond to all posted Questions immediately, in a single day, or even possibly in a week (please have patience, as we all have other things we do, besides these forums, at least I hope...), and I always reserve the right to not respond to any Question, or to reply with an Answer that I will not respond to a particular Question with reasons cited therein (this would have more to do with an attitude of a Question(er) than difficulty in answering).

    If any do decide to post a single Question, and I reply to that Question, and the answer is not liked by yourself or another, or the Answer given is not agreed upon by the Questioner or another, though Scripture [KJB] was given in Answer, you as the Original Questioner (or anyone else), do not (please, I ask kindly) get to post rebuttals to the Answer, in this Thread (this is not a debate thread), but you may ask another specific and pointed Question, for the purpose of probing, digging deeper, attempting to get to a weak spot in the Answer if one is there, or getting a better understanding of the Answer I gave according to the Scripture.

    If I do not know, or do not desire to assume a definition of any specific word(s) used in any given Question, I will relate this in my Answer and always go with what I understand to be the Biblical definition, and I will cite as such. If at this point, in the Answer to the Question, the definition of said word(s) is not what the Questioners definition was, or had in mind when asking, they may ask another Question and try again, defining their word therein more clearly (simply repeating any Question verbatim, is unhelpful, trying in another manner is many times helpful).

    All else will be ignored by myself, if that which is posted is not in a single Question format. It does not mean I have no reply to comments, etc that someone may make, but it does mean that I will not reply in this thread, but may do elsewhere charitably.


    May this thread be more useful that the previous. :thumbsup:

    PS. so that all may have access to the original Great Questions Thread - here:

    http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=99055
     
    #1 One Baptism, Apr 12, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 12, 2015
  2. One Baptism

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    No one haz question for me? :tear:

    C'mon, I likes teh questions, as I likes to Bible study! :thumbs:
     
  3. BobRyan

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    I have a question. (But it probably breaks the rule in the OP)

    What did Origen, Clement and Athanasius write about the Assumption of Moses quoted in Jude?

    [FONT=&quot]Jude [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]8 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Likewise also these dreamers defile the flesh, reject authority, and speak evil of dignitaries. [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]9 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Yet Michael the archangel, in contending with the devil, when he disputed about the body of Moses, dared not bring against him a reviling accusation, but said, “The Lord rebuke you!”[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] [/FONT]

    • [FONT=&quot]Ceriani[/FONT][FONT=&quot], and recently Tromp with him, identified the manuscript with the Assumption of Moses (which is also called the Ascension of Moses) due to a match of verse 1:14 with a [/FONT][FONT=&quot]quotation included in the Historia Ecclesiastica of [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Gelasius of Cyzicus[/FONT][FONT=&quot].[/FONT][FONT=&quot][2][/FONT][FONT=&quot] This apocryphal work, entitled [/FONT][FONT=&quot]פטירת[/FONT][FONT=&quot] [/FONT][FONT=&quot]משה[/FONT][FONT=&quot] in Hebrew, and [/FONT][FONT=&quot]᾽[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Ανάληψις or [/FONT][FONT=&quot]᾽[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Ανάβασις Μωυσέως in Greek, is also mentioned by [/FONT][FONT=&quot]other ancient writers, including [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Athanasius[/FONT][FONT=&quot] (in his Synopsis Sacræ Scripturæ) [/FONT][FONT=&quot]and [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Origen[/FONT][FONT=&quot];[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]Information on Testament of Moses[/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]John J. Collins writes: "In 1861 Antonio Ceriani published a fragmentary Latin manuscript which he had found in the Ambrosian Library in Milan and which he identified as the Assumption of Moses. The identification was based on chapter 1 verse 14, which corresponds to a quotation from the Assumption of Moses by Gelasius (Ecclesiastical History II.17.17). Gelasius elsehwere (II.21.7) refers to the dispute between Michael and the Devil in the Assumption of Moses. This episode is not found in the manuscript published by Ceriani, but is often referred to in patristic sources and even already in the New Testament in Jude, verse 9. (The allusion is not identified in Jude but is specified in Clement, Origen and other patristic sources.) The Latin manuscript does not refer to the death of Moses or his subsequent assumption at all and, since it is primarily a prophecy delivered before death, it is more properly described as a testament. In fact the Stichometry of Nicephorus and other lists mention a Testament (Diatheke) of Moses immediately before the Assumption, and the dominant opinion of scholars is that Ceriani's text corresponds to the Testament rather than the Assumption. In view of the citations in Gelasius, some have suggested that the Testament and the Assumption were combined in a single book. The surviving Latin text is incomplete, and may have concluded with an account of the assumption of Moses. Origen (De Principiis III.2.1) uses the title 'Ascension of Moses' for the document which contains the dispute between Michael and the Devil, i.e. the Assumption of Moses." (Outside the Old Testament, p. 145)[/FONT]
    ======================================

    I would like to find sources/quotes for what they said.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  4. One Baptism

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    Hey brother BobRyan, could you clear some PM space for me, as I would like to speak with you about your question. Thank you!
     
  5. vooks

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    One Baptist,
    Revelation 12:17 (ESV)
    17 Then the dragon became furious with the woman and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring, on those who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus.

    Revelation 19:10 (ESV)
    10 Then I fell down at his feet to worship him, but he said to me, “You must not do that! I am a fellow servant with you and your brothers who hold to the testimony of Jesus. Worship God.” For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.



    What is 'testimony of Jesus' also known as the 'spirit of prophecy'?
     
    #5 vooks, May 12, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: May 12, 2015
  6. Darrell C

    Darrell C
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    Sure. Should teaching be done in private? Should teachers demand a dominant role? Why isn't Taco Bell made out of bricks any more?

    ;)


    God bless.
     
  7. One Baptism

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    Hello brother vooks,

    To answer this question, I would first like to gather a few things, for first you had originally asked, in the other Great Questions thread [here: http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=2221298&postcount=52 and I do thank you [Thank you!] for posting there, and also again [Thank you!] for coming here as asked and reposting]:

    I do notice the change in original question though, but it shall not hinder my answer, but still I would like to gather a bit more, for I had noticed you posted another thread, before I had to time to reply, in which it was said:

    Now, I do not want to be uncharitable to you, and I will come to answer your question in just a moments time, but first I would like to point out brother vooks, that the OP in this Great Questions thread stated:

    I would kindly ask, that this be considered once more, as I cannot always respond immediately, or even in the same day, week, etc, depending upon circumstances.

    ...to be continued...
     
  8. One Baptism

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    Therefore, with that all being given, we can now move to the Question [Original] and as re-asked in a differing manner.

    According to the Scripture, "the testimony of Jesus" is specifically defined as "the spirit of prophecy", per:

    And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See [thou do it] not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy. - Revelation 19:10 KJB​

    Thus, Scripture gives the exact definition, being, "...the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy."

    Or we could put it similar phrase, using a mathematical term, where "is" is "=", like this, "the testimony of Jesus" = "the spirit of prophecy".

    This you seemed to pick up on, in your second rendition of the Original question, when it was asked in the second manner as, "What is 'testimony of Jesus' also known as the 'spirit of prophecy'?"

    The "also known as" would be akin to "is" and/or "=".

    Having only one witness, though clear and defined, is not enough, we need two or more witnesses, per Scripture, and so, we can look at a parallel text:

    Then saith he unto me, See [thou do it] not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God. - Revelation 22:9 KJB​

    Please notice:

    [1] Rev. 19:10 - I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus

    [2] Rev. 22:9 - for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets

    Thus the "testimony of Jesus", defined in Revelation 19:10 as "the spirit of prophecy", we see in Revelation 22:9, in a parallel text, that of the same saying of the angel, it deals with "of thy brethren the prophets".

    In James we read after a similar fashion:

    Take, my brethren, the prophets, who have spoken in the name of the Lord, for an example of suffering affliction, and of patience. - James 5:10 KJB​

    Notice, that "brethren, the prophets", have "spoken in the name of the Lord", and that Lord is Jesus Christ, thus again His testimony through them.

    In 1 Corinthians 1, we see that this "gift", being of prophecy, was placed in the Church by God:

    That in every thing ye are enriched by him, in all utterance, and [in] all knowledge; - 1 Corinthians 1:5 KJB

    Even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you: - 1 Corinthians 1:6 KJB

    So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ: - 1 Corinthians 1:7 KJB

    Who shall also confirm you unto the end, [that ye may be] blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. - 1 Corinthians 1:8 KJB​

    In the same book, later chapter, 1 Corinthians 12, we read again:

    Now concerning spiritual [gifts], brethren, I would not have you ignorant. - 1 Corinthians 12:1 KJB

    Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. - 1 Corinthians 12:4 KJB

    And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord. - 1 Corinthians 12:5 KJB

    And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all. - 1 Corinthians 12:6 KJB

    To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another [divers] kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues: - 1 Corinthians 12:10 KJB

    And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues. - 1 Corinthians 12:28 KJB

    [Are] all apostles? [are] all prophets? [are] all teachers? [are] all workers of miracles? - 1 Corinthians 12:29 KJB

    But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way. - 1 Corinthians 12:31 KJB​

    Further witnesses were given in the following places, which covered the second of the two witnesses of God, the two being the Law/Word/Commandments and the Prophets/Testimony/Prophecy, thus:

    To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, [it is] because [there is] no light in them. - Isaiah 8:20 KJB​


    Therefore, when we return to Revelation 1, we see:

    Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw. - Revelation 1:2 KJB

    Blessed [is] he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time [is] at hand. - Revelation 1:3 KJB

    I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ. - Revelation 1:9 KJB

    Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter; - Revelation 1:19 KJB​

    In Amos, we see that as a Prophet, he was to "testify" on behalf of the Lord GOD:

    Hear ye, and testify in the house of Jacob, saith the Lord GOD, the God of hosts, - Amos 3:13 KJB​

    Jesus testified through many Prophets:

    Yet the LORD testified against Israel, and against Judah, by all the prophets, [and by] all the seers, saying, Turn ye from your evil ways, and keep my commandments [and] my statutes, according to all the law which I commanded your fathers, and which I sent to you by my servants the prophets. - 2 Kings 17:13 KJB

    And they rejected his statutes, and his covenant that he made with their fathers, and his testimonies which he testified against them; and they followed vanity, and became vain, and went after the heathen that [were] round about them, [concerning] whom the LORD had charged them, that they should not do like them. - 2 Kings 17:15 KJB

    Yet he sent prophets to them, to bring them again unto the LORD; and they testified against them: but they would not give ear. - 2 Chronicles 24:19 KJB

    Nevertheless they were disobedient, and rebelled against thee, and cast thy law behind their backs, and slew thy prophets which testified against them to turn them to thee, and they wrought great provocations. - Nehemiah 9:26 KJB​

    Thus, the "testimony of Jesus" is "spirit of prophecy" is the "testimony of Jesus".

    I pray that this was helpful in answer to your question brother, in all seriousness and love. Thank you again for the question, it was a great question!

    PS. if you prefer it without colour I can repost, using only underlines and bolds, just let me know, since I left the colour in, for all others.
     
    #8 One Baptism, May 13, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: May 13, 2015
  9. vooks

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    One Baptist,
    Thank you for your attempt. But I have some reservation on these two verses

    Revelation 19:10 (KJV)
    And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

    Revelation 22:9 (KJV)
    Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God


    In 19:10, we have
    1. Fellowservant,
    2. Thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus

    In 22:9 we have
    1. Felowservant
    2 thy brethren the prophets
    3. Them which keep the sayings of this book.

    It seems to me like stretching the meaning of these two verses to imply that the prophets are the ONLY ones with the testimony of Jesus and not every believer.
    Besides, the angel is a servant and all believers are servants, the angel therefore is a fellowservant of not just the prophets but EVERY believer.

    Revelation 12:17 (KJV)
    And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.


    In this verse, it appears that the dragon fought with the entire remnant and not just a fraction of the remnant who were prophets since we know it is unreasonable to assume every one of the remnant was a prophet

    My other point is, I agree that prophets have testimonies.
    Isaiah 8:1-2 (KJV)
    Moreover the Lord said unto me, Take thee a great roll, and write in it with a man's pen concerning Mahershalalhashbaz. 2 And I took unto me faithful witnesses to record, Uriah the priest, and Zechariah the son of Jeberechiah.


    Isaiah 8:16 (KJV)
    16 Bind up the testimony, seal the law among my disciples.


    Isaiah 8:20 (KJV)
    20 To the law and to the testimony:
    if they speak not according to this word,
    it is because there is no light in them.


    I believe the testimony in this context is the one Isaiah was commanded to write and bind/seal. So once again, I have no doubt prophets bear testimonies.

    What I may also add is, a believer possessing the prophet's testimony may be said to be having the testimony of the prophet without necessarily being a prophet. So when you study scriptures like the Ethiopian eunuch and run into Isaiah prophecies of Jesus and you believe them, you have the TESTIMONY OF JESUS but you are not a prophet.

    We can test this quite easily.
    One Baptist,
    1. Are you a prophet?
    2. Do you have the testimony of Jesus?
    3. Do you consider yourself to be part of Rev 12:17 'remnant'?

    Your answers to these most likely will be NO, YES,YES
     
    #9 vooks, May 13, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: May 13, 2015
  10. vooks

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    One Baptism,
    A further observation;

    Revelation 19:10 (KJV)
    And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

    Revelation 22:9 (KJV)
    Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God


    In 19:10 we have;
    1. Fellowservant (John)
    2. Thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus

    And in 22:9 we have;
    1. Fellowservant (John)
    2. Thy brethren the prophets
    3. Them which keep the sayings of the book

    Would we rightfully argue from 22:9 that John (Fellowservant) and his brethren the prophets do not keep the sayings of the book since there are three distinct classes there of which only #3 are said to keep the sayings? That would be an absurd conclusion.

    Likewise John's 'brethren the prophets' and 'brethren that have the testimony of Jesus' need not exclude possession of testimony of Jesus by other class of believers
     
    #10 vooks, May 13, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: May 13, 2015
  11. One Baptism

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    Brother vooks, I would like to presently, and kindly, remind you of the OP 'rules' that I am abiding by herein. I do have answers to your responses, but they will not be given in this thread in any other manner, than according to the OP 'rules'. If you presently desire to not participate according to them, you may of course continue with your responses elsewhere [or if here, I will not be addressing them here, and I will be satisfied with the present answer already given if so, found here - http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=2221761&postcount=8 ], though I may not participate therein, however, if you would like my present attention and participation here, I would ask that you please do so accordingly to those OP 'rules'. Thank you for your time. I have underlined the pertinent portions:
    If you would like to continue in this thread with me participating in kind, please try again according to the OP 'rules'. It really helps to keep things orderly and on topic, which was one of the reasons this thread was so designed/geared this way. Thank you.
     
  12. vooks

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    Just answer the question and drop the shenanigans
     
  13. vooks

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    Daniel 8:11-12 (KJV)
    Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down. 12 And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.


    and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away
    Who takes away the daily/continual sacrifice?
    A. Jesus
    B. The little horn
    C. I don't know
     

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