Greg Gilbert - Against Music

Hey! I've put up with a lot of stuff on this board - but this one's over the line TIM! :laugh: (I type as I am setting my banjo aside).

Don't worry - you're not the only one that feels this way. You should see my wife roll her eyes every time I pick up my strings!

How can you have a truly blended preference without a banjo in the ensemble? :thumbs:

 

ooops, I made USN mad!!! RUN!!! He is going to play that banjo!!! NOOOOO......


You might be interested in this... A tract outlining the evils of the banjo...
http://www.whitetreeaz.com/vintage/tract.htm


I hope you know I am just yankin your chain... I play the Guitar, and love to jam with other musicians.. .even banjo players...

 

"Jam" that's an expression that when manifested it blew out my right ear to make me tone deaf to the higher notes and is very 60's/70's-ish.

This happened when I was 14 in a cellar type basement "jam" room approximately 14x14.

 

Blended, my eye! that's pureed!

 

Can anything with a banjo truly be called music?

Just kidding brother!

 

Has anybody noticed that every attack on the banjo is followed by "Oh, just kidding"?

I wonder whatl they really think!

 

It is said that David praised God upon an instrument of ten strings; and he would never have told how many strings there were, but that without doubt he made use of them all. God hath given all of us bodies, as it were, instruments of many strings; and can we think it music good enough to strike but one string, to call upon him with our tongues only? No, no; when the still sound of the heart by holy thoughts, and the shrill sound of the tongue by holy words, and the loud sound of the hands by pious works, do all join together, that is God's concert, and the only music wherewith he is affected. Sir Richard Baker. (Quoted in the Treasury of David)

 

We can safely assume that God is not in favor of all kinds of music, since the only record in the Scriptures where all kinds of musick is sanctioned is in the idolatrous command of a heathen king.

 

And lifting four words out of context does not an effective argument make.

 

Assumptions don't make facts, nor did I make an argument for "all kinds of music". I asked a rhetorical question for everyone to think about, and you answered it with all the subtlety of a death metal song at a funeral. Look again, I was discussing worship, and not necessarily music.

:thumbs:

 

Aaron, are you able to worship God in a church that uses Praise and Worship music?

I can worship God no matter what style of music is used....
Or not used.. even if the songs are read, and not sung..
Even if no songs are used...
Because my focus is on God... not the music.

Here is the problem as I see it...
People who like P&W and CCM can worship in Hymn only churches... (I know there are some that can't, but they are few and far between, and I have yet to see any on this board that is P&W only)

But Hymn only people can't worship in P&W style churches....
They are Hymn only....

When it boils down, it is the same as KJVO... MV users don't complain when they go to a church that uses KJV.. .but the KJVOs complain when they go to a MV church...

Now, if a person can't worship God because of an external, then where is the problem?....

With the person..
If a person requires CCM or P&W in order to worship.. .they are sinning... the focus is not on God.. but on music

If a person requires Hymns or SG to worship, they are sinning... the focus is not on God, but on music....

It is funny, but the pro-CCM crowd will agree that worshipping music is a sin...
But the pro-hymn will argue that they are not sinning...

That speaks volumes..

So tell me,

 

I guess they are like safety matches - they can only strike on their own box.

Worship, to me, is internal first. Then through the music (or even lack there of) I can express my worship. If the external - the style of music - determines my ability to worship, then somethings terribly wrong on the inside. Might be time for a major tune-up!

 

There are about a million threads on the subject on this site, christianyouth. Give or take, that is.

love,

Sopranette

 

tinytim--you make some HUGE assumptions. Not everyone who PREFERS hymns believes they cannot worship if the music is P & W or CCM.

We seem to be back to the same old tired argument--that if you like CCM and insist on it you are just being hip and with it, and if you don't--well, you are judgmental and an idol worshipper. (And of course, if young people won't come if we just do hymns they ARE insisting on having their way.)

My personal opinion is that there is NO type of music that is BETTER than the other, musically speaking. Lyrically, each piece must be judged for it's content whether old or new.

And surely putting the needs and yes, plain old desires, of others first has some merit.

So it would seem to me the place to start is to actually poll the congregation and listen to what they say. Choose accordingly.

But here is what I have seen happen:

Smallish, stable, older traditional congregation needs a minister. They call one and he comes. He soon realizes 1. not gonna be any raises in pay unless the church grows. 2. there are a whole lotta lost people in the community. 3. there is not a 'hip' church around and there are a lot of younger Christians in other churches in the community.

He soon realizes that by providing the CCM music his church can attract those younger folks from the other churches. That will solve issue 1 above AND hopefully provide a good base to tackle issue 2.

So far so good. (For him, not for those other churches.)

His church begins to grow and the people support him at first. But as time passes, those with that church from the beginning begin to miss what made church church for them.

Now he faces two choices: 1. He can find a way to minister musically to ALL the people in his church or 2. He can lose some of them.

I've seen pastors chose 1 above. Some do it by having two services, one contemporary and one traditional. Some do a truly blended service (not all hymns and one chorus or all CCM except for one hymn). Some do theme services, where the first Sunday of the month is all CCM, the second hymns, etc.

This works well, the body grows, the lost are saved, and this church grows numerically.

I've also seen pastors choose to let the original base of the church know that their wants and needs don't count. Those folks soon find another place to worship, and the mudslinging begins. Why? Because often those folks were in the place in life where their tithes and offerings are at their largest. Younger folks and oldsters may have lower incomes, making their contributions lower. They cannot support the church without the hymnlovers. Those leaving are called all manner of names, and accused of not loving the Lord or not staying "where God put them." Truth is, God may put you in Amarillo but that doesn't mean you can only attend one church there. Those folks leaving are often hurting, feeling they have been victims of a church stolen out from under them.

But I have also seen something very beautiful. I have seen a young pastor, convinced the town needed the more modern or youth oriented style of church, plant one instead of "stealing" one. I am watching now as those of the traditional persuasion are doing the same thing in this town.

And it is a beautiful thing indeed to watch Christians who certainly recognize their considerable differences work together and cooperate instead of compete and complain.

 

I think you misunderstand my post... because, I agree 100% with yours...
I know there is a difference in preference and those that refuse to worship in a P&W setting... But I have seen it.

I can worship in any musical style, but I prefer P&W... like in the car, and at home.

I agree with you.. That is one reason I have always promoted a blended worship in any church I have been part of... hymns are just as important as CCM.. and vice versa.

 

tinytim--my apologies for misunderstanding you, and thank you for such a gracious reply!

 

For the most part I stay out of this fight. Until about 7or 8 years ago I never was a pastor or a member of a church that had more than 2 to 4 songs or hymns in a service.

But what you have said above, I've seen to many times, a church split over music. How does that give glory to God? I'm not much into music, so as long as it isn't to loud, it is fine with me, but as I sing a long it is to the glory of God, because folks who hear me sing know it isn't to their glory.

The above is great. That seems to be folks trying to build a church to the glory of God. There are other good churches in most towns and folks seem to go to the one where they can be used by God and grow the most, it does not mean the other churches are bad.

Again it seems so simple to do right!

 

It's a fact that the only place in Scripture where all kinds of music is explicitly sanctioned is in the Babylonian king's command to fall down and worship an idol. :thumbs:

 

Fine. Noted.