Greg Gilbert - Against Music

When you say worship and I say worship, we're saying different things. Am I able to sift the chaff out of the wheat when I visit a church? Yes. But will I make my church home with and support a ministry that will not do what is right in the worship service? No.

And neither will you.

The argument has never been about personal preferences, it has been about the nature and form of spiritual worship. You would not attend and support a ministry that is doing what you feel is carnal or unspiritual, or in any way dishonors the Lord.

Your implication that the CCM folks are more tolerant is a fruit of not seeing the situation for what it is. There is no tolerance, and that is readily evident in the many threads on this board in which you yourself, and the regular CCM crowd here respond to those who will say what they feel about certain kinds of music and worship styles.

So the ability of you and your friends to worship in all kinds of styles isn't an issue of tolerance, patience, gentleness or any other virtue. It is because you have a certain view, and you hold others who assert that your view is wrong in contempt.

Not saying that it isn't natural to do so, just describing what is really going on.

 

Yes. I'd recommend two with which to begin:

Let Those Who Have Ears to Hear, and
http://www.amazon.com/dp/1579213189/?tag=baptis04-20

Confession of a Former Worship Leader
http://www.amazon.com/dp/0852345178/?tag=baptis04-20

On the Web:
Dr. Peter Masters (pastor of Spurgeon's church, The Metropolitan Tabernacle) has a series of articles you can read here:
http://www.freedomministries.org.uk/masters/popidiom.shtml

 

Hi, all, I'm fairly new here, and this is my first post, I was reading through the posts in this topic, and I must say, this is a hot-button issue. I need to mention, before submitting my opinion on this subject, that I'm 32 years old, have played A LOT of music in my life, I play the guitar, and am moving into playing the banjo. I've played secular music since I was 14, mostly country, but southern rock and stuff too. I've played music in places a Christian shouldn't be (not anymore, of course). My problem with CCM is that when it's played in church, it allows the world to come in, and in most cases take over the church services. What I mean by that is people listen to the melodies, not the words, some might listen to the words, but it's very few. Hymns are so pure, the music, the hymnals, it's so amazing, if I want to hear worldly music, I would stay in the world, I want to worship God, and I do not wish to hear worldly melodies while I do so, and I refuse to go to a church that welcomes that. We go to church to hear and see things that are not of the world. There is nothing that I can't play on the guitar, if I have a guitar in my hand and you said a song title, I will be playing it before you finish saying the title. But I refuse to allow secular music influences into my church life, I simply will not do it. I have read Lucarini's book, I don't agree totally with everything he says, but I don't disagree with much of it at all. I didn't post this to cause offense, and if I have, then I apologize, I just think it's important that people know of the dangers of CCM.

God bless you all
Todd

 

Welcome, brother Todd! You have expressed a "feeling" I've had about CCM for a while, too. There's nothing tangible I can show pro CCM people, as music expresses the inexpressible or sublime. We (Christians) are to be seperate from the world.

love,

Sopranette

 

AMEN! what is akward for me is: I can play anything I want to on my guitars, but I choose to serve God in the way that I feel comfortable with. I don't lift up my hands and wave them in church, I don't believe that we should "reach up" to God, but we should kneel, and crawl up to God, and show him our total submission to His will. We are not even worthy of His attention, however, He has blessed us with an eternity to be with Him! So I believe it is very important that we humble ourselves totally before Him. Some people may think that is too strict, but we as Christians have no idea what strict is, that is one of the many reasons the first 5 books of our bible are there, that was strict. God also is very strict about the way we are to worship, and we are bound to follow His direction. Sure, we fail, it happens, but we are to constantly do our best to please Him, when we live for Christ, everything else will fall into place.

Todd

 

Welcome to the boards Todd.. .we are going to disagree.. I can see that now.. but that's OK... It takes many types to make up God's kingdom...

The problem is when one of God's kids starts thinking God loves them more than others because they do something different than the other one.

Our Choir sang "People Need the LOrd" today and the congregation sang, "Let's just praise the Lord" Do you see a common denominator in just the Title? One is a hymn... the other is an old CCM song from in the 70s.

But both were sung to the glory of God. Both point to God... And God received our worship.. .(No lightning bolts!! lol)

Soprannete and I disagree over a few things, and I still like her!!!:godisgood:

(NOw where is that smiley at that sticks his tongue out?)

By the way Todd.. here is our Baptist Smiley.. you will appreciate it...
:wavey: Notice he never raises both arms.. and his feet don't dance!!! lol

 

Awww, Tim. Now you're making me blush

warm, fluffy fondness

Sopranette

 

Tinytim,

Thanks for welcoming me to the boards here, I am really glad we have a message board like this to be able to converse with not only our fellow Baptists, but our fellow Christians.

If we were meant to disagree, we were meant to disagree, I believe in the whole of my heart that CCM is a very dangerous thing to bring in to the church, it can lead to taking the focus off of God, and placing it on the music. I believe it is wrong to use music to attract people to church as well (I'm not saying that you're doing that, I am just stating). A lot of people don't know where the syncopated beats of today are derived from, even some musicians probably don't, but I fear that at the least bringing that into the church is overkill, and at the most, it can cause people to imitate and fall into the lifestyles of the secular melodies used. As Dan Lucarini stated in his book, we should not put stumbling blocks before our fellow Christians.

If you have not read Dan Lucarini's book, I would urge you to do so, but do so with an open mind, and please be objective. The problem that a lot of people don't see with CCM is it does in fact split churches and cause offense. The bible teaches us that if we do things that cause offense to our brother, then we should stop. I also think that when it does split churches, then evangelism stops, and that is very bad. We have to guard ourselves against such things, and all of these matters need to be handled with gentleness and respect. We must not forget to love one another, sometimes we allow Satan to come in and cause us to not love our church family, but we must put on the full armor of God in order to protect ourselves from the evil one.

Todd

 

The Bible also says to not let our good be evil spoken of...

and The CCM songs we sing, praise God... our church is not splitting over it.. even the older ones in church like it....


I do agree that we should not use it as "bait" that has never been my intention... our church has a blended worship because of the same reason you play hymns.. .we are comfortable with it. Your words from post 86...

"but I choose to serve God in the way that I feel comfortable with."

I have seen church splits, and usually it is the ones set in their ways that have no biblical background for their traditions or culture that complain over anything they perceive as change.

Be careful to not put your culture and your traditions above scripture.

And just because we use syncopation does not mean we are pagans...

To me, that is a racist argument... "Just because those people in other nations do it, that are not Christian... we would be sinning if we do"

 

If you're comfortable with it you're comfortable with it, but my problem is this: how can you worship God using the same melodies played in bars, casinos, and places where Christians should not be? I'm not saying you're pagans for using syncopation, I just want you to understand where syncopation comes from before defending it so much. Syncopation started in voodoo. You must also remember my words when I said I have been a musician for years, and when I play secular music, I use syncopation. Do I bring that into the church? No, it does not belong there.

Another problem I have is when a few contemporaries will get together and say that traditionals like myself are stuck in our ways, that's why the churches split. There is nothing valid in that argument, if it's not broken, and it's not, the hymns are fine, there is nothing offensive about them, so if it's not broken, why does it need fixing?

The answer is it doesn't, some people can't deal with conviction of the holy spirit and get uncomfortable, I attend church to hear and see something different from the world, CCM is not any different than secular worldly music.

 

What melodies are you referring to? I'm pretty sure that most of the melodies in Christian music are originals. Show me one melody being used in a bar song, honky-tonk twang, or casino show, and I'll show you 25 original melodies that aren't. I think you're mean the STYLE of those pagan songs you're referring to. But come on, I don't think anyone's using "Friends in Low Places" in their Sunday morning worship time.

Good... cause you'd be wrong.

Your opinion.

No one here said that that I'm aware of.

Again, your opinion. You're welcome at my church, brother, but I guarantee you won't like it. Glad there's a church with which you fit in and can worship without feeling dirty.

WHY DOES EVERY DISCUSSION (almost) ABOUT WORSHIP ON THIS BOARD TURN INTO A DISCUSSION OF TRADITIONAL VS. CONTEMPORARY MUSIC?

 

What, pray tell, is a "worship song"? Please give an example or two of old hymns that are "worthy" and that are not.

 

The melodies in the CCM that I've heard sound the same as the melodies that I have heard and played in the bars that I used to play music in. Now it's true, some of them may be "original" but I haven't heard much originality in CCM, Dan Lucarini lays all of this out in his book, I urge you to read it. The CCM I have heard lacks backbone, and most of it is not scriptural. The dress that the artists wear is normally not modest, I believe that it can be in fact a tool that Satan uses to exploit our weaknesses.

You would actually think I would go as far as to call those of you who use CCM in church pagans? I love you all, and would never say that.

Actually, it's fact, but we can be at this all day.

Then you admit that CCM is unnecessary?

I appreciate the invitation, brother, the problem is I don't look to be making it to Texas (nothing against you or Texas, but I'm not much of a traveler). I love my church, and if I have anything to say about it it will never be soiled by CCM, we have a full choir, and we use The Baptist Hymnal. We focus on the preaching in our church, and Gods word, hymns are there to just prepare our hearts for the preaching. True, we are searching for a pastor at the moment as our former pastor has retired, but I can assure you the man that is to lead our church will not lead us into CCM.

Because I think this is an ongoing problem sweeping through our churches today. It's splitting churches, and we should not let that happen. God Himself commands us to be "Holy as I am Holy" in 1 Peter 1:14-16.


I can tell you now that we're never going to agree on this, I would have to say that in this case, we are probably at an impasse.

 

I have seen those types of differences in the church as well, and I have seen the Deacon body gear up in my church and do their jobs, and that job is to promote church unity. However, how can you be sure it's Gods will to welcome in CCM. You can't, so I don't think there is any similarity that you can draw between draperies and music as far as splitting churches. One of these arguements is trivial, the other concerns the entire face of the church body.

Yes, I would leave my church if we went to a completely contemporary, or even a blended service. That is not my own desires, trust me, the church hymns are NOT my personal preference. I just don't see how using a multi effects pedal with an electric guitar, syncopated beats, dim lights, projectors, and the lifting of hands waving them , drawing attention to yourself(which we should not do) pleases God

Here is where we are going to seriously disagree. CCM is just a way for people to chase after their own musical preferences in church. That's all it is. I mean seriously. There is a meeting of all the Angel Food Ministries Host sites in Missouri (of which my church is a part of) and the minister of outrech for us was frantically contacting everyone trying to find guitar players and such for a directors meeting. He seemed more concerned with that than he is in doing Gods will. If CCM doesn't take the focus off of God in your church, that's great, but just wait, the day will come.

I have no idea what a worship pastor is, since my church doesn't have one, we do have a music director, though. The problem here is the focus, which according to this statement is on the music. The music in church is not to be used to "bring people to Gods throne" The music is to prepare our hearts for the preaching. The word of God is what brigs us to His throne. The Holy Spirit working in our lives is what brings us to His throne. And most of all, our loving Savior, Jesus Christ brings us to Gods throne.

Again I disagree. The words are great, but the problem with CCM is it takes the focus off the words and puts it in the music that you hear. That is why they use projectors and take the hymnals out of the hands of the congregation. There are still people in this world (me not being one of them) that can read sheet music, and follow the melody by reading the score, my wife can do it. When you take that out of the peoples hands in worshiping through song, it's not long before the people who go along with CCM to become mind-numbed robots, and forget why they are there.

Pretty much every CCM song I've heard I can root back to a song that is played in bars, nightclubs, and so on. Of course, you're not talking to an amateur here, I can play lead guitar in any band I choose to, I can find any chord on a guitar without using a capo, God has blessed me richly with my talents in playing the guitar, and I want to play it for Him, not me. I have been there, I've seen the evils that music can bring. The musician that has taught me everything I know died last August. Many times did I see him drinking, leading the life that came with the music that we played. It tore my heart out to lose him, I loved him, he was like a dad to me, and closer to the end for him, he came to know Christ, he was a believer, I know we will see each other again, and it will be very soon, because eternity knows no boundaries. He was the best guitar player I had ever seen, I was blessed to learn from him, and I want to put what I learned to use in Gods kingdom.

In closing, I would like to quote scripture.
1 Corinthians 8:12-13 says:

Meaning that we are not to offend our brothers with what we do. CCM allows people to no longer "dress moderately" as Paul has taught us, it allows the lifestyle that comes with secular music to come into our churches and corrupt the weak. We should all stand up and recognize this.

Todd

 

Syncopation did not start from "voodoo." And if it did (which it didn't), then it would be a sin to play it anywhere, not just church.

If syncoptation is evil, there are a bunch of hymns that must be thrown out as well.

(a post from someone who uses old, ancient, and modern music--that is, music that has been evaluated based upon scripture)

 

One could argue that is the deacon's job to assist in service in ministry (not promoting unity per se, but that's another thread). You absolutely can make the similarity...in this way: There is a Christian way to deal with extra-biblical issues (and hymns vs. CCM is an extra-biblical issue, with regards to style of music played. Theological correctness of lyrics, standards for those leading the church, etc., should have the same standards applied either way you go), and there is an un-Christian way. Any church leadership who "beat their congregation over the head" with a CCM direction is not leading in a Christlike manner. Our church offers multiple services--one contemporary service, and one traditional. Out of the near one thousand that come, we have not had the wars and divisions often described. Why?

• I truly believe our church leadership has a servant attitude. That goes a long way.
• This was prayed over thoroughly.
• God is being honored in both services.
• We do both service styles with excellence. Many churches throw all their resources into one service, and the other is an afterthought. Here...we aim to give God our very best in both formats.

Well, at one time, the service you enjoy was a "contemporary service." Research the objections to the piano, the organ, and polyphonic singing offered by critics of the time. Thing is, I still love and enjoy traditional stuff, and enjoy it being a part of my worship, and a part of my church life.

Mighty broad brush there. So...it's not possible for a traditionalist to have the same problems as a "contemporalist?" (Dont'cha love invented words? :laugh: )

"worship pastor" is an extra-biblical term. But you're reading more into it than there is. I totally agree with you about the centrality of the Word in the service, no matter the format. Can't speak for everyone, but at my church, that still stands.

So, now a projector is worldly? Believe it or not, I agree that it's a shame fewer people read music. But this isn't because of the projector. Society has changed. I could argue that because their noses aren't down in the books, that the singing is better. At our church, we have hymnals and a projector for our traditional service. I hope that's not offensive.

BTW, the "Mind-numbed robots" comment is offensive. You do not know the heart of someone who is worshipping God.

No, you can't...unless you don't know a great number of modern Christian songs.

Sorry for your loss, but this has nothing to do with what style of music is played in church. This has to do with your friend's bad choices.

Um, that Scripture doesn't address CCM, and it doesn't address a link you've invented between music played in church and how someone dresses. We, at my church, do expect our folks to dress in a God-honoring way.....someone visits us for the first time? We're letting 'em in...because they need to hear about Jesus. If they "belong" to us, we'll address inappropriate dress issues.

But anyway, the Scripture you quoted could just as easily, using your interpretation, be turned around against the traditional bunch. But I think your interpretation is flawed, so I don't buy either direction.

 

Maybe we need to define CCM---because actually, (I think Joshua brought this title up), I once visited a church in Northern NM with a country and western service, and altered lyrics to Garth Brooks then hit "I've Got Friends in Low Places" WAS one of the "worship" songs done. A dear friend of ours was a member there, a former alcoholic and country and westen bar goer, and he avoided that service like the plague. Said it made him want to run out to the old haunts.