Guns and People

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by th1bill, Jan 19, 2013.

  1. th1bill

    th1bill
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    Guns and Real Life

    I spent eight years of my early manhood in the US Army, serving the nation I love. Because I was determined to make a career of the Military before I understood the inherent cowardice of the American people, as a unit, I know the difference between Automatic, Semi-Automatic and Single Shot Firearms. In my position as the Crew Chief of the UH-1H, 67806, my weapon of choice was a weapon that fired the Military .30 caliber round, sometimes called the thirty ought six round with a full metal jacket on it. In my case, the weapon fired about 650 rounds a minute... continuous fire.

    This M60 Machine Gun is, however, not fired continuously by sane people. It is fired in short 3 to 7 or 8 round bursts to prevent burning the barrel out. I was also issued an M16, fully automatic, rifle that I turned in rusted and clogged shut because it did not work to my liking. I captured an AK47 that fired the same round as my M60 because of the knock down power.

    So... what am I ranting about? The Liberal Left now has a sick, sick, poster child to push the disarmament of the American Public. The AR15 used in the Newtown murders of the children and the teachers fires the same round the M16 fired that I disliked so much. The .30 caliber round is 3/10ths of and inch in diameter and the AR15 round is .223 caliber. The round is just under a quarter of an inch, weighs, considerably, less and was, in large, the reason I hated the weapon so much. But, this is the weapon and the Ammo they are out to ban.

    If I were to go off my rocker and I wanted to hurt somebody, I would break out a 1911 Colt 45 and if I wanted them dead, out comes my 12 Gage Pump Shot Gun, loaded with 12 Gage Slugs and for personal defense I'll have a box of Double Ought. With a 12 Gage Slug I put a hole in a 1/8th sheet of steel I can, often, place three fingers through. From 25 feet with the Double Ought Round it makes a hole for my fist to go through and from farther back it sprays .30 caliber lead balls everywhere.

    People, that AR15 did not murder the first teacher nor did it murder those children! A young man, mad at his mother did that. On the same day, in China, a man committed a mass murder of children, in their school, with a hatchet. So... what's next... sharpened pencils? Obama has split this nation into divisive groups and now he is seeking to divide us into sub catagories... did none of you study history and learn the lessons to be had from Adolph Hitler?
     
  2. SolaSaint

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    Bill,

    "Never let a good crisis go to waste" isn't that what the liberals love to do? I knew the minute this was reported, it was the crisis they were looking for.

    I watched Hannity tonight and he had a weapons expert on the show stating the same thing you are. It seems the liberals will do anything to appear righteous, so they gather children around themselves and take away a few weapons that will do nothing to solve the problem.
     
  3. NaasPreacher (C4K)

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    Fair viewpoint, but the guy in China didn't kill anyone. http://www.thejournal.ie/22-students-stabbed-china-716792-Dec2012/
     
  4. HAMel

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    Obama was "hiding behind" those children. A sad day indeed.
     
  5. blackbird

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    The AR15 became military issue and ushered in during the early years of the Vietnam War---replacing the phased out M14

    One of the selling points of the M-16 was not the more lethal firepower---but lighter loads upon the soldier giving them the ability to carry more rounds per soldier

    What baffles me is----the standard issue of WW2 & Korea for the Americal forces was the M1 Garand----firing a .30-06 round---Lt Gen George Patton boasted that the M1 Garand was the "best %$(*^$#@*&!@* rifle anyone could have":wavey::wavey:-----nonetheless----I wouldn't stand in front of you if you were pointing a M-16 in my general direction---thinking its a worthless firearm thats gonna jam after the first few rounds!!!!! (Although I can site sources that say there were more than a few American soldiers in Vietnam who died-----with cleaning rods inserted in their AR 15 trying in hast to releave a jammed cartridge during a VC raid on an outpost)
     
    #5 blackbird, Jan 19, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 19, 2013
  6. th1bill

    th1bill
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    There are a good many things to co0nsider when making a post of this sort. My men's lives, my pilot's lives and my life depended on the weapon in my hands and having lived theough three tours in Vietnam, two of them in the field, I have experience to rely on. The AR15 is a much improved weapon over what we were issued in the sixries.

    And then, I was issued the Garand M1 and was there when we were down graded to the much less effective M14. We lost an immediate fifty foot f efective range and every one of us knew to carry a used clip in our pocket to toss on the ground after the seventh round to fool the enemy with for the M1.

    Early in '66 we, in Germany, were informed but the upper eschelon cadre that we were to be downgraded further with the tinker toy AR15s. I was not exposed to the toy gun until it was issued on my arrival in country in June of '66. The man issuing the piece warned us to carry, at all times, a back up piece and to get one to kill or capture a VC and keep his weapon. As a result, we in thed Cavalry had everything from Python .357s to .45 claiber Grease Guns.

    Unlike the Hollywood movies, our goal was to get out of there alive and the AR15s were very reliable jamming devices. Having been shot, I do not want to stand in front of the business snd of any piece but this string is not for the purpose of hypothetical situations, there are to many real things in this life to be deealt with. And when we look at real situations, disarmming the public has never made them safer. When we look at Switzerland we see just the opposite to be true. That is pretty much my point on one side but the center of the issue is logic and what we are doing, under the direction of today's version of Adolph Hitler.
     
  7. th1bill

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    Fair observation but that does nothing for the PTSD those youngsters will live with the rest of their lives and then... it's not his fault they did not die. The reasons they lived will cover a range of different reasons, just as the ones that survived Newtown covers a spectrum of causes.
     
  8. glazer1972

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    Just so you know.

    The M60 fires 7.62x51 (.308) not 7.62x63 (.30-06).

    The AK fires neither. It fires 7.62x39.
     
  9. North Carolina Tentmaker

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    glazer is correct with his ammunition. While the M-60, M-1, M-14, and AK-47 all fire 30 caliber bullets the cartidges are different. Well, the M-60 and M-14 both fire the 7.62x51. The M-1 fired 30-06 (7.62 x 63) and the AK-47 uses the 7.62 x 39.

    Here is a picture of both the 7.62x39 and the 7.62x51 with the 5.56x45 (the M-16 round) at the bottom.


    [​IMG]

    I am sure Bill had a terrible time with his M-16/AR-15 in Vietnam, but the biggest problem with the jams turned out to be substandard ammunition, not the rifles themselves. The design specifications called for 5.56 ammunition made with a specific powder that the Olin Corporation changed due to manufacturing costs. The cartridges deliveredin the Vietnam War did not meet the design specs and did not provide enough gas expansion to work the action reliably causing many jams. There are a lot of conspiracy theories about the ties between the Olin corporation that manufactured the cartridges and leading democrats of the time. I have heard they included the Kennedy and Johnson families but I don’t know if there is any truth to that. What I do know is that rather than fix the ammunition they changed the design of the rifle to accommodate the lower expansion. The M-16 became the M-16A1 in February of 1967 and by 1968 all rifles in Vietnam were supposedly changed out. The A1 model had chrome lined bolts, chambers, and barrels to fight corrosion and would function with the lower gas expansion. After 1968 the issues with the rifle seemed to disappear. An original M-16 using the specified ammunition had a fire rate of 1000 rpm. With the modifications the M-16A1 rate of fire dropped to 650 rpm.

    There were other problems with the M-16 as well. It was promoted as a “Maintenance Free” weapon so when they were initially ordered and issued they did not include instructions or cleaning materials. Also early M-16’s did not have chromed barrels or bolts like the M-14 had so they were prone to rust when not kept clean and dry. There is a good article in Guns and Ammo that details many of these problems at:

    http://archives.gunsandammo.com/content/recycling-myth
     
  10. th1bill

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    glazer,
    Pride is sin but I will say yours is a bit tarnished for the lack of fore-thought. The OP is not about the AK 47 and the ammo we fired came straight out of the Ammo Dump. If I shoot you with an AK 47 and the shoot you with a .308, which one will kill you?
     
  11. th1bill

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    Same comments as to glazer. It is just like reading the Bible, context, context, context. I am not a member of the NRA and this string is not about ammo, it's about using your brain in a logical fashion. And so we have two great examples of what Jesus would never do. Attacking the messenger never changes the message.
     
  12. Monster

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    th1bill, you say "it's about using your brain in a logical fashion".

    I read and inferred both of their posts as informative and helpful. How did you miss that if your own brain was engaged? Why so nasty?

    You might want to learn how to play well with others or maybe stay out of the sandbox.
     
  13. th1bill

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    Not nasty, just on point. Their posts have no more to do with the issue than yurs does. Having taught the scriptures for the past 21+ years I, fully, expect the lost to run off track. I, on the flip side, expect the saved, the followers of Jesus, to be Spirit led and God's mind does not wander nor does it seek to kill the messenger.
     
  14. North Carolina Tentmaker

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    Sorry Bill, no attack on the messenger intended, I just wanted to clarify the facts on the firearms we were discussing. The AR-15/M-16 family of weapons are reliable and were pretty cheap to shoot. I wish I had purchased one years ago but they are too expensive now.

    You are correct that a ban on this particular weapon or caliber will do nothing to curb violence or crime or keep our children safe. But of course the safety of our children is not the real goal behind any gun ban, it is control of the law abiding masses they seek. If they really wanted to protect our children they could outlaw the so called “gun free” zones and allow qualified teachers and school employees to carry on campus. That would cost zero and would immediately create a safer environment for our children. But did you really think the party that has murdered our unborn for 40 years to care about the safety of the recently born?
     
  15. glazer1972

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    PHP:
    You think I was attacking you. That is far from correct. I just wanted you to know so you can correct the errors so our opposition has nothing to nitpick your essay with. If you think that's caused by my pride then so be it.
     
  16. th1bill

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    And that being, directly, on point, we are of one mind. We live in a troubling time, where the world is influencing the Christian and we tend, because of that trend, to jerk our knees and you are only guilty, in reality, of standing in the path of another's twitching knee but left go and, from previous experience, it complies and goes full swing into "Kill the messenger."

    I believe I'm going to leave my position as moderator on anothor forum that was murdered by an Atheist the Admin would not allow me to ban. He used the kill the messenger tactic for so long on me and others until there are just six Christians left there and the Catholic Deacon Administrator still willo not dismiss him. There were three Catholics, I know of and about 20 Protestants but the board has just died now and there can be exchange of Bible truth just because of the "Kill The Messenger" tactic I was so fluent in before I was saved.

    Knowing we are of like mind and being a hard headed teacher all I can ask is don't fall into the traps seeping into the Christian World. And may my Father always pour uncontainable blessings out on you and yours.
     
  17. Monster

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    You have serious issues with anyone that you presume (falsely or otherwise), disagrees with you. You need to work on reading comprehension.

    You have issues with pride it seems, too. How does length of years, teaching God's Word automatically equate to you having a handle on truth or wisdom? That amount of time spent learning and teaching hasn't resulted in a lot of demonstrable grace in your posts. I've been involved in teaching scriptures for slightly longer than you claim (about 24 years). I've also, at the same time, been a stout believer in being teachable or at the very least correctable. That can be done without condemnation or damnation, you might benefit from refraining from both. You however purport yourself as being unassailable, so maybe I'm just shouting down a well here.

    I seriously doubt you do recognize followers of Jesus, Spirit led people or otherwise in a conversation like this. This is the second I've seen you refer to someone that disagrees with you as "lost" or "unsaved". You might want to work on that issue a bit. It's a root of judgmental bitterness, beware the fruit it may eventually bear.

    And lastly, you also have a serious martyr complex, bordering on a messiah complex. Be very careful making presumptions about God's mind where others are concerned. Very nasty business.
     
  18. th1bill

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    glazer,
    You did not reade the OP to understand the context and you have, again, ignored the context of the last message you quoted. I am here for neither your, nor my, pride! And your post, demonstrating your superior knowledge with a rebuke of my ignorance was followed, as is too oft the case, by a little watering that has, since, been withdrawn, that was about to be a dog pack seeking the kill.

    You did not comment on the context of the message about and centered on common sense but, rather, chided me for being so stupid (Kill the messenger). I'll go back and reread your post to make sure I'm not crossing posts on different forums and if I'm doing that, I'll apollogise.
     
  19. th1bill

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    No, there is that first line, "Just so you know."
     
  20. th1bill

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    And if I remember correctly, you are going to be furious with me a second time because I am here to help and fighting with you, glazer or somebody else will help noone, so this will be a short exchange, ending, on my part, with this post to you.

    You, ignoring context, accuse me of the same crime and then, putting words, unuttered, into my posts, accuse me of telling somebody they are lost in this string... that is not only not true, it's a fabircated tell, a.k.a. a lie.

    Now, you, I have no doubt been teaching something about twenty-four years longer than I have taught the scriptures, there are many millions of teachers but not so many that teach the infallible scriptures as the Word of God. That being said, this is just another leg of the "Kill The Messenger" movement in this string, started with glazers posts.

    Your really not on topic.




    Without need for further comment and restraining the natural man's instincts to flail back, good day, sir.
     

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