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Hail, Switzerland

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by Stratiotes, Jul 9, 2004.

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  1. Stratiotes

    Stratiotes New Member

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    #1 Stratiotes, Jul 9, 2004
  2. The Galatian

    The Galatian New Member

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    Right. The other model was the Roman Republic, with it's "mixed" balance of powers between Senate, Tribunes, and Princeps.

    BTW, I think I know why the Swiss have no submarines... [​IMG]
     
    #2 The Galatian, Jul 9, 2004
  3. Stratiotes

    Stratiotes New Member

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    And, Articles of Confederacy which preceded the Constitution - which was very close indeed to the Swiss model.

    I thought the reference to the executive branch being far less dominant than it has become in our country was especially interesting.

    And, the idea that an armed citizenry is not about hunting or even self-defense so much as it is about keeping power in the hands of the people so that they may protect their own liberties.
     
    #3 Stratiotes, Jul 10, 2004
  4. The Galatian

    The Galatian New Member

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    Yeah, a coup in Switzerland would be suicidal. Assuming they could scrape together enough troops to take part in it.
     
    #4 The Galatian, Jul 10, 2004
  5. Joseph_Botwinick

    Joseph_Botwinick <img src=/532.jpg>Banned

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    It would seem to me that this site comes from a pacifist point of view and is not exactly objective in their reporting. Am I correct?

    They also seem to have a problem with Jews as is evidenced by this article on their website:

    http://www.sobran.com/articles/faction.shtml

    I find some of his statements in this article to be true, some to be partial truths and some to be outright lies. Further, his idea of Christian theology seems a bit flawed to me as he believes that the primary goal of all Christians is to proselytize. This is not supported by scripture anywhere that I know of.

    Further, his accusations against the Jews as hating Mel Gibson also ignores the fact that Orthodox Jew, Maia Morgenstern, played one of the lead parts in te movie (Mary) and that there were several Prominent Jewish leaders who probably didn't get as much play in the media who came out in defense of the Passion (Rabbi Daniel Lapin, Michael Medved, and Maia Morgenstern). It almost seems to me that he has an axe to grind with the Jews.

    So, let's see here, anti-Semitic and pacifist. Not what I would call a credible source. But, if that is what you identify with, go for it man.

    Joseph Botwinick
     
    #5 Joseph_Botwinick, Jul 10, 2004
  6. Stratiotes

    Stratiotes New Member

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    Joseph,

    I think the article you mention makes it pretty clear that he is referring to a group that is known for their liberal views. Are you suggesting now that being a "liberal" isn't so bad if you are a Jew at the same time? I'm just trying to put this in perspective with your other posts. No, not trying to pick a fight, just trying to pick a fight, just trying to honestly understand how you saw it as anti-semitic.
     
    #6 Stratiotes, Jul 10, 2004
  7. Joseph_Botwinick

    Joseph_Botwinick <img src=/532.jpg>Banned

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    Yes. You are somewhat correct in that he does say that most Jews. However, I would hasten to point out that not all Jews who support Israel also support Liberal ideas such as abortion and gay rights. I think it is wrong to equate the two ideas. It is not a liberal idea to support Israel.

    Joseph Botwinick
     
    #7 Joseph_Botwinick, Jul 10, 2004
  8. Terry_Herrington

    Terry_Herrington New Member

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    More Anti-Semiticism? Joseph, do you really think that everyone is Anti-Jewish?

    Give us a break! :rolleyes:
     
    #8 Terry_Herrington, Jul 10, 2004
  9. Joseph_Botwinick

    Joseph_Botwinick <img src=/532.jpg>Banned

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    1. Is Sobran trying to say that the "Christ Killer" accusation was not used to support Pogroms and perscution against the Jews? Is he trying to deny the horrors of the Holocaust?

    2. Is Sobran making the charge that Israel has been the aggressor, and not the Palestinian Terrorists?

    3. Is Sobran saying that it is Israel's fault that Islamic Jihad and Hamas terrorize their country?

    I think there is no doubt to most clear thinking people on this board that these statements by Sobran are disturbing, distorted and false. So, yes, Terry, in answer to your question, I do think Sobran is anti-semitic. Shame.

    Joseph Botwinick
     
    #9 Joseph_Botwinick, Jul 10, 2004
  10. Stratiotes

    Stratiotes New Member

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    Maybe its a question we should be asking - which brings us back to the central point of raising the question of why Switzerland is as free as the US or Israel and terrorists are not "hating them for their freedom." It must be something else....
     
    #10 Stratiotes, Jul 11, 2004
  11. The Galatian

    The Galatian New Member

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    You don't see Swiss culture leaking into other cultures. Nor are Swiss values of freedom beginning to threaten authoritiarian regimes.

    If that was happening, the Swiss would also have a terrorist problem.

    It's not just that the US is active internationally; it's that our example is being watched by other peoples.

    If they have a government who is telling them that they must give up freedom to be prosperous, they see our example, and know it's not true. They see freedom gives them security and prosperity.

    And the bad guys know it. It's not an unfounded fear. The Soviet Empire in Eastern Europe collapsed for just that reason.

    The Chinese communist regime almost fell for that reason.

    The authoritarians are running scared.

    It's one of those things that Bush and the neocons have wrong. We don't need to invade. Our values and ideas are doing that just fine.

    Matter of time.

    But it makes them hate us.
     
    #11 The Galatian, Jul 11, 2004
  12. Stratiotes

    Stratiotes New Member

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    I agree and disagree. Authoritarians maybe but not the common terrorist pawn-level recruit.

    It seems odd to me that we are so ready to believe we're hated for our altruism rather than the reasons they have given. Doesn't that sound just a little bit arrogant to anybody else?

    And, if it were our example alone, then Switzerland is an even better example of freedom and nobody seems to hate them in the way they hate us. It has to be something more than that.
     
    #12 Stratiotes, Jul 11, 2004
  13. Joseph_Botwinick

    Joseph_Botwinick <img src=/532.jpg>Banned

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    So, is this about isolationism? Is the great crime of Israel that they don't stay in their little corner of the world? How nice.

    Joseph Botwinick
     
    #13 Joseph_Botwinick, Jul 11, 2004
  14. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

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    Have you not heard of the Great Commission, Joseph? You think that all Christians are not to be interested in seeing other people coming to Jesus in repentance and faith?

    Matthew 28:18-20 (ESV)
    And Jesus came and said to them, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. [19] Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, [20] teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age."

    Mark 16:15 (ESV)
    And he said to them, "Go into all the world and proclaim the gospel to the whole creation.
     
    #14 KenH, Jul 11, 2004
  15. Joseph_Botwinick

    Joseph_Botwinick <img src=/532.jpg>Banned

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    Have you not heard of the Great Commission, Joseph? You think that all Christians are not to be interested in seeing other people coming to Jesus in repentance and faith?

    Matthew 28:18-20 (ESV)
    And Jesus came and said to them, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. [19] Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, [20] teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age."

    Mark 16:15 (ESV)
    And he said to them, "Go into all the world and proclaim the gospel to the whole creation.     </font>[/QUOTE]Do you really want to get into this debate here? OK:

    Matthew 28:19-20 (KJV) Do you notice a difference in the translations?

    It is not our job to convert people. Our only job is to pray for them, and preach the word. Proselytizing means that you go and try to convince them to convert. That is the Holy Spirit's job, not ours. Keep looking, Ken, eventually you will find something wrong with Israel. I have full confidence in you good buddy.

    Joseph Botwinick
     
    #15 Joseph_Botwinick, Jul 11, 2004
  16. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

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    I see no difference between preaching the Word and trying to persuade them to convert.

    But maybe you are using some nuance that I am not understanding. [​IMG]
     
    #16 KenH, Jul 11, 2004
  17. Ps104_33

    Ps104_33 New Member

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    I like the switzerlands belief on gun control. Every family must own a gun!
     
    #17 Ps104_33, Jul 11, 2004
  18. Joseph_Botwinick

    Joseph_Botwinick <img src=/532.jpg>Banned

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    #18 Joseph_Botwinick, Jul 11, 2004
  19. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

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    A typical neocon/neo-Jacobin smear piece, Joseph, against we paleo-conservatives. You really ought to find sources other than columnists who are mere shills for the Bush administration.

    It's also rather sad, Joseph, that you would use a smear piece by a non-American(Mr. Frum is Canadian) to attack your fellow Americans.
     
    #19 KenH, Jul 11, 2004
  20. The Galatian

    The Galatian New Member

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    Neocons are internationalists, Ken. Their first loyalty is to their ideology, not to America.
     
    #20 The Galatian, Jul 11, 2004
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