Hamas wins an election...are we to see the beginning of the next intifada in Israel?

Discussion in 'Politics' started by Joseph_Botwinick, Dec 18, 2005.

  1. Joseph_Botwinick

    Joseph_Botwinick
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    Hamas wins key local Palestinian elections

    I am really beginning to wonder if Sharon did not make a mistake in giving over the Gaza Strip to the Palestinians now without anything in return. Did I really just hear yesterday that Hamas just won a major election in the Palestinian Government? Can there be real peace when terrorists who have called for the destruction of Israel are in charge? Has Sharon repeated the mistakes of Oslo? Thoughts? Comments?

    Joseph Botwinick
     
  2. KenH

    KenH
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    The corruption that built up within Fatah during Arafat's days is causing Abbas a lot of problems.

    Story LINK


    Of course, with electoral victories come responsibilities in governing. Hopefully, this will result in Hamas working within the democratic system and moving away from violence in much the same way that we hope that increased Sunni involvement in the recent Iraqi election will result in less support for the terrorists in Iraq.
     
  3. Joseph_Botwinick

    Joseph_Botwinick
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    It just looks like a mistake has been made to me, and I think Sharon is going to pay with his political career and with the deaths of hundreds of Israelis on his hands. Either way, he certainly needs to not make anymore deals at all with them until there is concrete action toward disarming Hamas and the other terrorist groups and not just empty words.

    What a mess.

    Joseph Botwinick
     
  4. KenH

    KenH
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    Patience, Joseph, patience. There are a lot of political winds swirling on both the Palestinian and Israeli sides of working toward a two State solution.
     
  5. Joseph_Botwinick

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    1. I think that is a pipe dream along the lines of us hoping Arafat would reign in the terrorists.

    2. The obvious difference that I see between the Sunnis and Hamas is that not every Sunni is a terrorist or agrees with the terrorists. Hamas is a terrorist organization whose goal is the destruction of Israel. The Sunnis are not marching through the streets chanting martyrs by the millions either.


    Joseph Botwinick
     
  6. KenH

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    I don't think that anyone seriously expected Arafat to rein in any terrorists.

    As for Hamas when taking over governing responsibilities the voters expect results in improving their daily lives. Failure to do so results in loss of public support. Hamas is about to find out that ruling on the inside is way different from agitating on the outside.
     
  7. Joseph_Botwinick

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    I hope you're right.

    I still think Hamas and all the terrorist organizations should be disarmed before anymore talks are held. I still think it is a mistake for Israel to keep giving and giving and giving and get very little to nothing positive in return. If there is to be any hope of peace in Israel, there must be reciprocity.

    Joseph Botwinick
     
  8. KenH

    KenH
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    Agreed.
     
  9. church mouse guy

    church mouse guy
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    Joseph, I agree with you that Sharon should be through. I think that he was forced to give up the Gaza by the USA in return for our fighting the war in Iraq. At any rate, the USA restrained Israel from holding the Gaza. I think that Israel should keep the Bank and force the Arabs into Gaza. One thing that could be done is to fire all Arabs with jobs in Israel.
     
  10. LadyEagle

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    I feel faint. One day perhaps, Joseph, you will realize the gravity of what the Road Map plan was/is about and why I did not vote for Bush, who implemented it (as part of the Quartet). (One of my top 3 reasons for not voting for him.)

    Once someone understands the enemy and ideology of the enemy, it is relatively easy to predict their next move.

    The goal of the Palestinian leaders/people/factions has NEVER been to have a state living alongside Israelis. The goal is to utterly destroy the nation and people of Israel and drive them into the sea. They haven't even been discrete about it.

    I don't want to say I told you so...............
     
  11. Joseph_Botwinick

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    CMG and LE,

    The Israeli people themselves are the ones who pressured Sharon into giving up the Gaza Strip. The polling data at the time was overwhelming in support of the move. I am in support of it as well...but think there should have been reciprocity before that action occurred. I even said so back then, if you will search your collective memories...or perhaps the archives. I expressed doubts that without the Palestinian government being forced to do something concrete to disarm the terrorists, this would not lead to peace. There can and should be peace in Israel. There can and should be a two state solution somewhere at the end of this thing. That, to me, is not the question. The question is what is the correct way to get there. I have stated already what I think the correct way to get there is above. LE, I disagreed with the Road Map from the beginning because like all American Presidents in the past, it was concieved out of ignorance. I was willing to give it a chance with the death of Arafat. I think it is pretty clear now that it has failed. Sharon's plan for peace has failed. Bush's plan for peace has failed. Rice's plan for peace has failed. It is time to change courses and listen to people who quit the Israeli government like Sharansky and demand reciprocity instead of giving the world for nothing.

    CMG,

    I disagree strongly that all Arabs should be fired. Some of those Arabs are Christians, and even further, many Jews are also of Arab descent. For example, I know several Iraqi Jews who live in Israel. Racism is not going to be the answer to this conflict. Reciprocity is.

    Joseph Botwinick
     
  12. hillclimber

    hillclimber
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    LE's right that the Palistanians don't care about statehood, they only want Israel's destruction.
    All the Arab nations in the area want that, and the sooner we understand that and bias our national stance accordingly, the better. Iran must lose their nuclear abilities, unless giving free open access to all venues associated with it.

    Just like America wouldn't have prospered without slaves in the beginning, Israel couldn't keep on without the Palistinian workers.

    As I've said before, absolutely no agreement is going to provide peace in the region, til the Lord Himself returns and sets up His Kingdom.
     
  13. Joseph_Botwinick

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    Hillclimber,

    You have never been more wrong on just about every point than what you just stated. Palestinians do care about Statehood. Hamas doesn't. You are correct that Iran needs to be disarmed, and that will come in time. If we were truly a Christian nation that was blessed by God, then certainly he could have blessed us without slaves. We sinned by having slaves. Israel can live without Palestinian workers. But, they employ them because it is the right thing to do. There are many Palestinians who are good people, hard workers, and in many instances, are just as much victims of Hamas as the Israelis are. Your last statement is based on an incorrect understanding of Scripture and is patently wrong. There can and should be peace in Israel. There can and should be a two state solution.

    Joseph Botwinick
     
  14. hillclimber

    hillclimber
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    The Palistinians do not want the responsibilities associated with statehood. The welfare load alone would be staggering. Having to comport themselves as a responsible nation is completely beyond them at this time.

    THis nation was founded as a Republic, with laws based on the scriptures, and I know you agree. We have steadily moved away from that foundation, but we clearly started out Blessed because of it.

    Slavery was legal at the time and was not a horrible national sin that God felt compelled to condemn. These slaves contributed greatly to our rise to prominence. The bible is filled with societies utilizing slavery.

    I'm sure there are fine hard working Palistinians, but they are hired workers very similar to our Mexican field hands here.

    My Bible is clear that the whole world (almost) hates Israel, and that peace WILL NOT come till Christs return. Just look at the history of Israel since 1948 (I think statehood) There has been absolutely no lasting peace in spite of thousands of treaties, pacts, agreements and promises. Virtually every US president since then has tried brokering a peace with words such as,"well finally we have peace in our time" or other such unbiblical conclusion. You have not properly looked at God's word as it pertains today, and as a Baptist you won't, but that doesn't change the facts.
     
  15. hillclimber

    hillclimber
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    Barb says I seem callous to the slavery issue, and I don't want to be that way, and I don't condone slavery at all ever but it did occur, and goodness did come out of it, and this nation prospered. And slaves did hear the gospel and responded to Christ in huge numbers. I submit, that most, if not all these slaves would not have heard the Gospel in their lifetime were it not for slavery.

    In a perfect world there would be no slavery. But we're not there yet.
     
  16. The Galatian

    The Galatian
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    This nation is still suffering from the fact of slavery. It was an evil for the South, too. What it did was suppress business and prosperity, because the few who could enslave many people and steal their labor, had an advantage over ethical businessmen in obtaining resources and revenue.

    It produced a "second-class" America south of the Mason-Dixon line, where poverty ruled, and education was substandard. That's still a problem, although it is, thank God, finally abating.

    Lingering resentments and mistrust still simmer from that awful time. Nothing good comes from evil.
     
  17. Terry_Herrington

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    [​IMG]
     
  18. Bunyon

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    "It produced a "second-class" America south of the Mason-Dixon line, where poverty ruled, and education was substandard. That's still a problem, although it is, thank God, finally abating."-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    That would be the fault of reconstruction, not slavery. And I have seen more prejudice in Nothern cities by both races than I ever saw in the south. In the south we go to school together and live together. In the norhern cities if you wonder into the wrong neighborhood, weather you are black or white, you might never come out again, at least not in one peice. We are suffering now becaus of the hate and fear mongering of folks like Jackson and Sharpton not because of a historical fact from 150 years ago.

    And why does all the world's problems go back 150 years to American slavery, anyhow? Brainwashing!
     
  19. Bunyon

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    "Barb says I seem callous to the slavery issue, and I don't want to be that way, and I don't condone slavery at all ever but it did occur, and goodness did come out of it, and this nation prospered. And slaves did hear the gospel and responded to Christ in huge numbers. I submit, that most, if not all these slaves would not have heard the Gospel in their lifetime were it not for slavery."---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    In other words, God did not tell us about Joseph for nothing.
     
  20. LadyEagle

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    And how did we get from Hamas to American history of slavery, I humbly ask?

    At any rate, the Palestinian people who were privileged, and I do mean privileged, to work for Israelis were glad to do so, because it was an income for their families. They weren't slaves at all. This was witnessed by the pulling out of Israel from the Gaza Strip and those who wanted to continue working in the Israeli greenhouses were bewailing the fact that they were losing employment once the Israelis pulled out.

    We have handed out money for decades to the Palestinian people as a whole - it is the biggest welfare system the world has ever known. And what happened to the money? It was squandered and all that happened was fomenting of hate, instead of gratititude and trying to make a productive society.

    There was a great article about this I found one time. I'll see if I can find the link later on today.
     

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