I've stated before. My major opposition to the Catholic Church is one of application. Note Jesus statement in Matthew 7:15-20 One of the reasons I left the Catholic Church at 15 was that my family was devoute. Attending Mass every Sunday. Going to Confession at least once a month. Yet, they committed Adultry, gossipped, fornicated, and ignored God the rest of the time. Before I was rescued at a missionary boarding school, I was considering becoming an atheist. However, God's grace prevented this. Now here is an article from the times http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article7056689.ece Here are some excerpts from the article I find to be problematic for Catholics Now considering the Catholic view of the sacrament of baptism. How can a man be "born again" under baptism, filled by the Holy Spirit at confirmation, annointed to be a Priest with a special grace that allows him to provide the "body, blood, and divinity of Christ" in the Eucharist, get promoted to being a Cardnal - all without believing in Jesus?!? It is from the Cardnals that a pope is elected. So presuming that the sacraments provide grace and the eucharist changes men to be more godly how can you have a cardnal not believe in Jesus? If Jesus spoke the truth in the above quote then how am I to judge the "fruit" I've seen personally and what has been shown publically in the Catholic Church? Jesus is about changed lives. Turning away from sin. Do the sacraments work? I think this is a key question. How did the Jews know Jesus was the messiah? He forgave a man of his sins then he healed him to show that the son of man has both the power to forgive sins and to heal. By his actions. And the effectiveness of his miracles. Now lets take a look at the sacraments. I'll use myself but I'm certain I'm not alone. I was baptised a Catholic. I didn't think one thing about Jesus and certainly we never spoke about him at the dinner table. My step mother being budhist an all. I went to first communion and received a nice certificate. However, in the many years after that point I did all sorts of evil with out a second thought. I had little conscience. I was finally confirmed which means I was filled with the spirit but still nothing changed. I certainly didn't speak in tongues :laugh:. My life only changed when I prayed for Jesus to forgive my sins enter into my life giving me his life that I may die to myself and live again in him. I asked him to give me a new spirit and since then I spurned the lifestyle I once had. Also note before that point I had no desire to read the bible much less understand anything it said. My life effectively changed. yet with the multitude of exposures to the sacraments nothing changed. this is where the rubber hits the road. We can discuss theology all day long yet I question what works? If I'm working on a car engine and what I do does nothing to get it going how effective is it? But if I do something that gets it running then isn't that the better way? There are many Catholics who's lives haven't changed despite the frequent participation in the sacraments. This is where I hold my family at bay. So Lori, Brianna, Matt, Agnus Dei, Zenas how do you explain this? Not that I dislike you guys but effectiveness is an issue (In fact you guys often have keen insite into what you believe). What really works? Are the sacraments effective? How if they did nothing for me or others? What about the fruit of the church. I know Matt is Anglican and Agnus Dei is Orthodox, Zenas I think is baptist but has a knowledge of the Catholic Church. Yet each holds to a belief in the sacraments. Yet what about the fruit as Jesus above acknowldeges it?