Has God fore-ordained everything that comes to pass?

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by 2BHizown, Nov 1, 2005.

  1. 2BHizown

    2BHizown
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    Has He decreed that what is, was to have been? In fht final analysis this is only another way of asking, Is God now governing the world and everyone and everything in it? If God is governing the world, then is He governing it according to a definite purpose, or aimlessly and at random? If He is governing it according to some purpose, then when was that purpose made? Is God continually changing His purpose and making a new one everyday, or was His purpose formed from the beginning? Are God's actions, like ours, regulated by the change of circumstances, or are they the outcome of His eternal purpose? If God formed a purpose before man was created, then is that purpose going to be executed according to His original designs and is He now working toward that end? What saith the Scriptures?(taken from AW Pink's, The Sovereignty of God, chap. 6)
     
  2. 4study

    4study
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    2BHizown,

    Predisposed statements. Sometimes we have our minds made up on a matter. Bottom line, God's Providence does not debunk the idea of human choice. Problem is, taking an extreme view of Providence can lead to the idea that God decrees every single circumstance in human life. To me, the next logical step is to believe everything is fatalistic.
     
  3. King James Bond

    King James Bond
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    2BHizown,

    We can be assured that God is in control. Not a sparrow falls to the ground apart from His will.

    I will try to post the LBC on the subject later.

    KJB
     
  4. whatever

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    Of course He has. What has ever happened that God did not intend to happen?
     
  5. AresMan

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    So, does God cause the perverted to rape and kill helpless children? Does He cause homosexuality? Does He cause merciless uncivilized tribes to skin their victims alive and build pyramids from their heads?

    Think of the most disgusting, perverted, twisted, mind-boggling, puke-inducing sin conceivable and wonder if a holy God Who says "Be ye holy, for I the LORD am holy" actually plants such an idea in man's mind and literally puppeteers him to do such. Why would God give you a conscience that such activities are diabolical while at the same time cause people to commit heinous acts for His mere pleasure?

    I would say the sovereignty of God does not necessitate such an ideal. He can be absolutely sovereign yet create mankind, though fallen, in His own image. God can know the beginning from the end and can allow fallen man to die in his sins, but please don't treat a Holy God as a zoorastrian or yin-and-yang dictator. I have no problem with Calvinism. I may disagree on a few things, but please don't go to the extreme!
     
  6. TCassidy

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    I posted earlier regarding God’s Decretive Will, God’s Preceptive Will, and God’s Permissive Will but the post was largely ignored. God's Permissive Will is involved in the above, but not his Preceptive or Decretive Will. [​IMG]
     
  7. jarhed

    jarhed
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    But that is not what my Bible says. He knows when the sparrow falls, he does not predestinate it. It is my WILL to write this post. God allows me to choose. When God spoke to Adam he did not question his sin as one that had no choice. God did not ORDAIN the United States to kill 1/4 of our children over the last 30 years...yet we have done so. Jesus said of Jerusalem...I WOULD, but YE would not. Phil. 2:5 says "LET this mind be in you." All of Romans 6 speaks of the war which is in us and that we must choose to serve one (old nature and sin) or the other (New nature, righteousness & OBEDIENCE). To believe that God has created sin rather than free will flies in the face of His Righteousness.

    The bottom line is, I know I do whatever I want, and many times it grieves God. I fight that old man by attempting to submit to the Lord and LET this mind be in me...but, as Paul said, there is a war in my members and it is AGAINST the WILL of God and has its seed in the WILL of man (Rom.6&7). These are just simple Bible facts.
     
  8. whatever

    whatever
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    AresMan,

    Why do you equate 'intend' and 'cause'? I intend for my children to respect their elders but if they do when I am not around then I do not cause it. I might contribute to it indirectly by my influence over them, but that's about it.

    I don't think that's how we treat God. But consider this - think of the most disgusting, perverted, twisted, mind-boggling, puke-inducing sin conceivable and ask yourself, since God knew before He created the world that it would happen, why did e create the world anyway? If He doesn't create the world that sin doesn't happen. If He creates the world a little differently then perhaps that sin doesn't happen. And yet He intentionally created the world knowing that if He did so everything would happen just as it has happened. I don't see how anyone can get around this, except by denying God's foreknowledge.
     
  9. 2BHizown

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    God is sovereign and man is responsible! Can you believe both are true! This is God's world and He controls all that happens here and as in Rev 4:11 " You created all things, and by Your will they exist and were created".

    Abraham risk being slain for instructing his wife to claim she was his sister to Abimelech. God used His power to protect Sarah. Abimelech might have wronged Sarah but the Lord restrained him. Gen 20:6
    Josephs brothers conspired to harm him but God did not all them to carry out their evil plan. Gen 37 :18 Glorious account of Joseph being exalted.
    Balaam was hired to curse the Israelites by Balak. God restrained Balaam from doing so. Num 23 : 8,20

    Not only does God restrain the wicked individuals but nations as well. Ex 34 : 24

    God has access to the hearts of men and softens or hardens them according to HIs sovereign purpose!

    When Esther entered the kings court and risked being harmed, she instead obtained favor in his sight. Est 4 : 16

    Daniel when captive in a foreign court was brought by God into favor and tender love with the prince. Dan 1 : 9

    Prov 21:1 "The king's heart is in the hand of the Lord, as the rivers of water: He turneth it whithersoever He will."

    God superintended the crucifixion of Christ and nothing was left to chance. Every detail God had decreed when, where, how His Son was to die occurred as prophesied, even His betrayal by Judas, used by God for such a task! All that He had ordained took place exactly as He purposed.

    Free will in scripture? Well, perhaps Nebuchadnezzer got to choose which pasture he grazed in!!
    God reigns over all the affairs of me!!
     
  10. King James Bond

    King James Bond
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    jarhed,

    How do you KNOW it is not God's will that you write this post? And how do you KNOW that God did not put in your heart the will to write?

    How do you know?

    Here is an example of a king that did not know....he merely thought.

    In Isaiah 10, God is doing some speaking;

    "Destruction is certain for Assyria, the whip of my anger. Its military power is a club in my hand. Assyria will enslave my people, who are a godless nation. It will plunder them, trampling them like dirt beneath its feet.

    But the king of Assyria will not know that it is I who sent him. He will merely think he is attacking my people as part of his plan to conquer the world.

    After the Lord has used the king of Assyria to accomplish His purposes in Jerusalem, He will turn against the king of Assyria and punish him--for he is proud and arrogant.

    He boasts, "By my own power and wisdom I have won these wars. By my own strength I have captured many lands, destroyed their kings, and carried off their treasures. By my greatness I have robbed their nests of riches and gathered up kingdoms as a farmer gathers eggs. No one can even flap a wing against me or utter a peep of protest."

    Can the ax boast greater power than the person who uses it? Is the saw greater than the person who saws? Can a whip strike unless a hand is moving it? Can a cane walk by itself?

    Listen now, king of Assyria! Because of all your evil boasting, the Lord, the LORD Almighty, will send a plague among your proud troops, and a flaming fire will ignite your glory. The LORD, the Light of Israel and the Holy One, will be a flaming fire that will destroy them. In a single night he will burn those thorns and briers, the Assyrians. Assyria's vast army is like a glorious forest, yet it will be destroyed. The LORD will completely destroy Assyria's warriors, and they will waste away like sick people in a plague. Only a few from all that mighty army will survive--so few that a child could count them!

    Acts 4:27-28

    "That is what has happened here in this city! For Herod Antipas, Pontius Pilate the governor, the Gentiles, and the people of Israel were all united against Jesus, your holy servant, whom you anointed. In fact, everything they did occurred according to your eternal will and plan.

    I tell you jarhed, He who boasts should boast ONLY of what the LORD has done.

    Daniel 4:35

    All the people of the earth are nothing compared to him. He has the power to do as he pleases among the angels of heaven and with those who live on earth. No one can stop him or challenge him, saying, `What do you mean by doing these things?'

    Does anybody know how to be thankful anymore?

    Everybody is so ready to credit themselves with anything and everything all the time.

    If God has included you in His good things boast of Him! Boast of Him always! In good times and in bad times boast of the LORD!

    Phil 1:6

    And I am sure that God, who began the good work within you, will continue his work until it is finally finished on that day when Christ Jesus comes back again.

    KJB
     
  11. King James Bond

    King James Bond
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    2BHizown,

    AMEN!

    KJB
     
  12. TomMann

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    My bible doesn't say that God knows the beginning from the end..... It rather says..... "Declaring the end from the beginning".... He declared the end... from the beginning.... Insomuch as whatever he declares comes to pass..... I think I have to give heed to the fact He is pretty much in control of all that comes to pass.....

    Ps 135:6 Whatsoever the LORD pleased, that did he in heaven, and in earth, in the seas, and all deep places.

    Note: Whatsoever.... He pleased..... that He did...

    Acts 15:18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.

    And what is his work?

    John 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

    God's work was that the 'whosoever' would believe.. And who are the whosoevers.... They are the as many as were ordained to eternal life.

    Please feel free to hermanute and exegete and hebrew this and greek that..... and tell me why this all isn't so....

    Every word of God is pure, He is a shield to those who put their trust in him....
     
  13. 2BHizown

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    http://www.google.com/search?q=God%27s+control+in+history&hl=en&lr=&start=10&sa=N

    Excellent article by John Piper at this site reviewing the extent of God's control, including this paragraph:

    First, then, consider the evidence that God controls all things, including evil. When I speak of evil, I have two kinds in mind, natural and moral. Natural evil we usually refer to as calamities: hurricanes, floods, disease, all the natural ways that death and misery strike without human cause. Moral evil we usually refer to as sin: murder, lying, adultery, stealing, all the ways that people fail to love each other. So what we are considering here is that God rules the world in such a way that all calamities and all sin remain in his ultimate control and therefore within his ultimate design and purpose!

    Our God is much more in control that He receives credit for!! Soli Deo Gloria!!
     
  14. AresMan

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    I posted earlier regarding God’s Decretive Will, God’s Preceptive Will, and God’s Permissive Will but the post was largely ignored. God's Permissive Will is involved in the above, but not his Preceptive or Decretive Will. [​IMG] </font>[/QUOTE]Agree completely! Yet there are those here who would say that God cannot be sovereign unless He absolutely causes to happen every minute detail good or evil to the same ultimate and decretive level. To me, that is a limited view of sovereignty based on man's finite logic. But of course, anyone can argue that anything else is based on man's finite logic, and I can't argue with that either. [​IMG]
     
  15. AresMan

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    I guess He then chooses not to receive enough credit?
     
  16. 2BHizown

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    I guess He then chooses not to receive enough credit? </font>[/QUOTE]So true!! God is sovereign and man is responsible! This is an 'antinomy'.
    Even our hunger to know Him better is given to us by Him! Thank Him for it!
     
  17. 2BHizown

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    Thanks for your great post supporting God's total control!
    Thanks to all who respond with such mind challenging thoughts! Please do read the first sentence of OP again!!
    Blessings and thanks to Him who causes us to seek Him and know HIm better every day!!
    What saith scripture! Look, its written with the finger of God!!
     
  18. whetstone

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    This thread has a lot of texture to it. I like it. :cool:
     
  19. 2BHizown

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    Understanding the antinomy with Spurgeon's help:

    Spurgeon didn't try to reconcile every paradox or apparent contradiction in the Bible. He said:
    That God predestines, and that man is responsible, are two things that few can see. They are believed to be inconsistent and contradictory; but they are not. It is just the fault of our weak judgment. Two truths cannot be contradictory to each other. If, then, I find taught in one place that everything is fore-ordained, that is true; and if I find in another place that man is responsible for all his actions, that is true; and it is my folly that leads me to imagine that two truths can ever contradict each other. These two truths, I do not believe, can ever be welded into one upon any human anvil, but one they shall be in eternity: they are two lines that are so nearly parallel, that the mind that shall pursue them farthest, will never discover that they converge; but they do converge, and they will meet somewhere in eternity, close to the throne of God, whence all truth doth spring. (New Park Street Pulpit, 4:337)
     
  20. 2BHizown

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    Theological Debate

    The story is told of a group of theologians who were discussing the tension between predestination and free will. Things became so heated that the group broke up into two opposing factions. But one man, not knowing which to join, stood for a moment trying to decide. At last he joined the predestination group. “Who sent you here?” they asked. “No one sent me,” he replied. “I came of my own free will.” “Free will!” they exclaimed. “You can’t join us! You belong with the other group!” So he followed their orders and went to the other clique. There someone asked, “When did you decide to join us?” The young man replied, “Well, I didn’t really decide—I was sent here.” “Sent here!” they shouted. “You can’t join us unless you have decided by your own free will!”

    Today In The Word, August, 1989, p. 35
     

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