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Has KJVO caused any church splits?

Discussion in 'Bible Versions & Translations' started by ktn4eg, Aug 16, 2009.

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  1. HAmilton

    HAmilton New Member

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    I appreciate your intent (the level of education needed for good comprehension) but a fifth grade capacity in any language is not enough to proficiently translate a children's book let alone a truly complex document such as the Bible. The guys who attempted this came from a church in Rochester, NY, not far from you.
     
  2. Harold Garvey

    Harold Garvey New Member

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    Brother, we who take the KJV literally to be the word of God without exception are not "cult members", we are Christians just as you say you're a Christian.

    The reasoning you're using makes all Christians cult members when compared to what the rest of the lost world thinks about Christianity.

    I find your referencing to "KJVO" being a "cult" fits into that same line of reasoning. It is derogatory in essence. It is mere speculation. Your view places yourself on a pedastal to judge other Christians. I find you to be in error according to many verses in the Bible.
     
  3. gb93433

    gb93433 Active Member
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    While I have no doubt as to your sincerity and honesty I believe you are sincerely wrong. There are some particular reasons. No translation is perfect. An original document always sits within a particular culture in a particular time and must be interpreted and translated in light of its historical context. Every language has words which cannot be tranlsated and have no meaning in the receptor language while it did in the source language. A great example in Spanish are the words ¿Cóma está?' and ¿Cómo estás? They translate with the same words in English but have very different usages in Spanish.

    Can you explain how to translate a Greek perfect participle intro English such as in 1 Peter 1:4 the word translated "reserved"? Reserved is not an absolutely accurate translation. While it may be the best possible selection it is still not 100% accurate.

    In 21:15-17 two different Greek words are translated "love." How does the English word point out the differences in the Greek words?
     
  4. Dale-c

    Dale-c Active Member

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    What hypocrisy!
    WHo is the one separating based on what translation a person uses?
     
  5. Havensdad

    Havensdad New Member

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    Amen. You took the words out of my mouth: thanks dude...

    Harold,

    YOU are the one saying "Your not doing things right unless you do them MY way".

    I am actually doing the opposite of putting myself on a pedestal. If I were doing that, I would be saying something like "The ESV is the only legitimate translation of the Bible! All the other translations like the KJV, have been influenced by Anglican Bishops, Catholic manuscripts, and Satan himself!"

    Sound familiar?

    You point to the Bible to support? Where does the Bible say that the KJV is the only accurate version of the scriptures? Funny, since the KJV uses the Masoretic OT, yet Jesus and the Apostles quoted from the Septuagint in the NT: a fact admitted by KJV translators.
     
    #25 Havensdad, Aug 19, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 19, 2009
  6. Harold Garvey

    Harold Garvey New Member

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    Your line of reason takes God totally out of the picture and leaves all men at the mercy of men like you.

    Think on that for a minute or two and see if you can realy continue thinking like this.
     
  7. Harold Garvey

    Harold Garvey New Member

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    Separating from what, not whom. Cannot say you are separating from what, but whom.

    You reject my position and then reject my fellowship. Where have I once rejected you? have I once asked you to leave BB?:saint:
     
  8. Harold Garvey

    Harold Garvey New Member

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    When you stop lumping me up and mixing previous dialogues with others i can respond to you, until then maybe you should try to leave our dialogue amiss of other dialogues.
     
  9. gb93433

    gb93433 Active Member
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  10. saturneptune

    saturneptune New Member

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    Yes, we all took different languages in high school and college. So what is your point? Most people are going to buy an English Bible version of their choice and learn the Word of God. That is as deep as they will ever get, and guess what, the Holy Spirit will guide them and teach them what they need to know and understand. While knowing Greek and Hebrew does aid in Bible interpretation and understanding, there are lots of people with Hebrew and Greek language knowledge where basic doctrine never sinks in? Sound familiar?

    I am with you. I doubt you would see any type of Bible in a SBC church.
     
  11. gb93433

    gb93433 Active Member
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    KJVO folks trust their mentors without any verification just as there are those who are not KJVO who trust their mentors without any verification. Both are wrong. Obviously when there are disagreements both cannot be right. Words are only correctly understood as one understand the context correctly. Translation does not always reveal a full understanding. One can translate the Spanish questions [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica]¿Cómo está? and [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica]¿Cómo estás?[/FONT] with the question "How are you?" However, it does not tell the entire story of their correct usage.

    You have a good point in that the early church did not have a Bible in every hand and God used them. I am quite confident they were taught by those who followed and knew Jesus.

    For those who have taken the languages they now realize the lack they once had. It is much like trying to explain sight to the blind.

    There are many who refuse to believe. I have heard it with my own ears. Actually nobody who is disobedient will ever get deep because God does not reveal himself to the disobedient.

    I am not familiar with types of Bibles. Can you explain?
     
  12. Josh the Baptist

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    As far as leaving, I consider the KJVO movement a cult. by Havensdad



    That wasn't very nice when Havensdad implied that all KJVO folks were cultists. It's difficult to judge an entire group based on what one has encountered in some. It would have been better to say that "some come across as cultists", because that would be a true statement. What you consider is not absolutely true and ruined the thread. Did you really think you could make such a statement and no one come to defend their personal convictions? Instead of getting the original question answered we have endure another argument.
     
  13. EdSutton

    EdSutton New Member

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    This is certainly true.

    In addition, one might note that in Lk. 4:16-21, Jesus read from the scroll of Isaiah, that was present in the synagogue at Nazareth, where the text He read from (not some text which He may have paraphrased) complies with neither the LXX or Masoretic text, and pronounced what He had read as Scripture!
    This passage is from Is. 61:1-3, which apparently reads in this manner in the Massoretic text (and I do make the assumption that the translators have accurately rendered the Massoretic text here) in these words.
    Here is how the LXX reads for the same passage as translated here -

    http://www.ccel.org/bible/brenton/Isaiah/61.html
    One should note the differences in the texts, as shown by the blue words which I have bolded, here.

    Incidentally, here is a link to the LXX where this can also be found.

    http://www.studylight.org/isb/bible...on=0&it=kjv&ot=lxx&nt=na&Enter=Perform+Search

    The point is, these OT texts of Isaiah are indeed different, even to the third one which Jesus read from. Yet He specifically proclaimed this as Scripture.

    Personally, I'm gonna' agree with Jesus. :jesus:

    Any others may do as they choose.

    Ed
     
  14. Harold Garvey

    Harold Garvey New Member

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    There you go, placing the authority of the word of God into man's hands.

    easy, define love, exhaustively, without showing the meaning of the passage.:tongue3:

    The Greek enhances the definition now doesn't it? But all along the meaning is right there.

    I think you'd like for others to forget English ios made up of many different languages, including Greek.
     
  15. Harold Garvey

    Harold Garvey New Member

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    Would you agree that most of who Jesus spoke to NEEDED to hear the word in GreeK?

    For those unaware of the trickery here, Greek was the common man's tongue of the Jews under Roman rule. Most did not even speak Hebrew.
     
  16. EdSutton

    EdSutton New Member

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    Whether or not I would agree with your posed question is irrelevant. The fact remains that in Luke 4, Jesus read Isa. 61:1-2a from a copy of Isaiah that does not match any known MSS in any version or language, be it a copy of the Greek LXX or any Hebrew MSS of that passage, and pronounced what He read to be Scripture.
    I have not claimed otherwise, as to what language was being spoken in Luke 4, which indeed was that of koine Greek. (And let it be noted that I have here cited renderings from an Hebrew rendition, which is purported to be apparently identical to the Massoretic Text, the LXX, and the third copy from which Jesus read.)

    I have attempted no trickery of any kind.

    No my brothers and sisters, the real "trickery" is here offered in the "question-begging" and fancy footwork by which Harold Garvey is side-stepping and avoiding answering the questions raised, and attempting to change what someone has actually said, by implying something else, entirely. And I am not falling for such subterfuge.

    Ed
     
    #36 EdSutton, Aug 20, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 20, 2009
  17. gb93433

    gb93433 Active Member
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    Translation, yes. God's word no.

    Could you explain?

    Then explain the differences between the two words translated as love. There is a difference in the usages of thsoe words then what the English depicts.

    So what is the difference between scribe and graph?

    Do you know what the Hebrew word for wife is?
     
  18. gb93433

    gb93433 Active Member
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    If you were to read the Greek text of the NT you would quickly realize that for most it was their second language. Greek was the trade language at the time much like English is today. Most of the NT is written in Greek using Hebrew phraseology as one would write a language which was their second language.
     
  19. Harold Garvey

    Harold Garvey New Member

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    Oh, so you're saying Luke was present to actually hear Jesus read?:tongue3:

    Maybe you forget Luke was not one of the twelve, he was Paul's personal physician. Luke would have written his Gospel from at least a third person perspective: Jesus spoke. His words passed on eventaully to Paul ( who only saw Jesus in his glorified body) and from here to Luke.

    talking about "subterfuge"!!!:sleeping_2:

    deal with the facts and stop maligning the thoughts of others.
     
  20. Harold Garvey

    Harold Garvey New Member

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    So then your line of reasoning places God's words amiss from any translation and we can't have the word of God because it perished in the original manuscripts.

    yep, define "agape'" love apart from any definition of the English word "love".

    Double speak; love has many definitions applicable to the receiver and from the giver of that love.

    Humorous that you understand Greek in English then deny English can relate the Greek.

    Use a dictionary. Your insisting me to be one to compare with your understanding.

    Please show us your definitions and the Greek from where you form your opinion and i will show you that your explanation is in English.:tongue3:

    "eesha". Now what lies ahaed is a proliferation by you on the word as if it ONLY means "woman" and somehow leaves out the distinction of "wife" when the context tells us the meaning and how the word is to be understood.
     
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