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Featured has Rome EVER Changed Views On Council of Trent?

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Yeshua1, Mar 19, 2013.

  1. Thinkingstuff

    Thinkingstuff Active Member

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    Your problem when it comes to Justification is that you have introduced a false dichotomy. You have absolutized the forensic nature of Justification and insist that God's declaration doesn't effect change (an ontological change) in the one justified. Where as in the Catholic view one could say:
    In the end your view of Justifaction falls short because its only a declaritive statement or a legal fiction but Catholics know what God said in Exodus 23:7
    Thus God doesn't want to just make a declaration ie forensic justification view (ie a legal fiction) but to cause an ontological change in the one justified.
    Thus scriptures and Paul would disagree with you. What does Paul say?
    Thus we are not only given a experiential change in relationship but given an actual righteous nature. We are made righteous. We see this false dichotomy which disengages the declaration and the actuality of ontological change challenged by Paul when he says
    So Justification cannot be simply just forenesic.
     
  2. Matt Black

    Matt Black Well-Known Member
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    Exactly. In one sense only can justification be said to be a 'one-off' event - the Crucifixion.
     
  3. Thomas Helwys

    Thomas Helwys New Member

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    I'm not RC, but one doesn't have to be to disbelieve forensic justification.
     
  4. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    God put upon jesus at the Cross ALL of my sins, Christ died in MY PLACE, as a penal Substitute to the father for me!

    When the Lord saved me, placing me in Him at moment reeceived jesus by faith, the Father saw me in Him, forever perfect in regards to be hld guilty for sins commited past/present/future!

    there is no 'legal fiction", involved, as Jesus death paid to the father for ALL my sins, and when saw in jesus, I am complete and fully justified to God!

    Do you hold to jesus death being a penal substitution to the Father on our behalf or not?
     
  5. Thinkingstuff

    Thinkingstuff Active Member

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    In some sense there is an aspect of "penal substitution" in the atonement however that is not the entirety of the atonement else you damage the character of God. Certainly, Jesus Christ died for "all your sins" however, you must then not only accept the grace by confessing those sins (in repentance) of that atonement but also use it to transform your life.

    Look at this statement of yours. It proves you hold a legal fiction view of salvation. Look at your own words!
    Not that God sees you as you are but by a trick of a shell game you are saying God doesn't see you but his son. You are in actuality hidden behind the son. Which makes your righteousness not a real righteousness but a fiction as God's eyes are now blinded to you in actuality as Jesus stands in front of you. Thus there is no actual transformation of your life.

    as I've just shown it is a legal fiction, a declaration, but not an infact statement regarding who you are. And again you refer to the father being blinded to who you actually are by Jesus standing in front so the Father cannot see you. You are not complete nor fully justified unless you are "made righteous" as Paul says. You must move on to perfection by the renewing of your mind again as Paul says. Justification is a process and completed when we are in heaven which nothing imperfect enters is.

    Do not hold that Penal Substitution is the whole of atonement because it makes of God unjust as then God would punish the innocent to let the guilty go free also it is unjust because temporary suffering and temporary death is a disproportionate payment to infinate death and suffering. And in the end and the greatest flaw with penal substitution is that it confers on its beneficaries freedom to sin without consequences. I do not believe this is scriptural. Rather I hold that Jesus Satisfies the Justice of God by his infinate merits.
     
  6. Matt Black

    Matt Black Well-Known Member
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    Yes, PSA is but one model and one part of what the Crucifixion (and Resurrection - don't forget that!) achieved. There are other components: substitutionary atonement (ie: without the penal part), Christus Victor and the ransom theory.
     
  7. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    We NEVER become ANY more saved than when God the father freely justifies us at moment of receiving jesus by faith alone, for we will always been see as in Jesus, clothed in his rightousness !

    Now, we will be conforming more and more into that Image of Christ, but that does NOT make make any more saved, just being acting moree like Christ, exhibiting him unto others in my conduct/words/deeds!

    Again, you confuse justifed before God by grace/faith alone, with walkin in the saunctifing process afterwards!

    wsa the thief on the cross saved or not, and how was he?
     
  8. Thinkingstuff

    Thinkingstuff Active Member

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    If what you say were true; then Paul wasted his breath when he said.
    or when he said
    But I believe Paul didn't waste his breath and your view is therefore wrong.

    We can't enter heaven unless we are perfect. Our Justification isn't complete unless we are perfect. Jesus is not playing a shell game with us. He's making us righteous and the first step is to wash away our sins. Now the next step is sanctification. Sanctification is important aspect of our faith one not to be disregarded.

    Nope because scriptures doesn't see faith without the works it produces. Therefore I'm not confused. You are confused because you read James which says
    , you then say to yourself "oh we must be justified by faith alone because the bible says "that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone." It seems self evident that you are confusd.
     
  9. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    paul is rtalking about progressive santification, NOT salvation in allthose passages!

    God will is for all to become into the image of christ, that thoughts/actions/deeds reflect the Son of God living in and thru us more clearly, BUT nothing to do with salvation in the sense of being saved going to heaven etc...

    ALl to do with ability to be used for/by God here, and to earn eternal rewards for services unto him, NOT salvation per say!
     
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