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Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by Plain Old Bill, Nov 19, 2004.
Your thoughts please.They have went to the KJVO stance and take other extra Biblical stances.
From what I have read in their sample copy, and from articles and from the online sermons, it seems to be that they have definitely gone whole hog on the KJV-Only thing.
They used to re-print a lot of material by late 19th and early 20th Century evangelists like Moody, Torrey, Sunday etc. I am not sure they do as much now. (Although I was baffled by the fact that john R. Rice liked these guys, considering how ecumenically cooperative they were in evangelism.)
Seems like the American fundamentalist movement is localized in the South around issues like Rock N Roll and the KJV. I think they hope by wishing hard enough, they can time warp back to the 40's/50's. Everyone should read only the KJV, wear a suit, sing only hymns, and do door to door confrontational "soul-winning" evangelism.
Don't get me wrong. I am a fundamentalist in beliefs (as defined in "The Fundmentals.") But I am not a fundamentalist in the cultural sense.
I enjoyed the old-time sermons, showing a link of preaching in generations gone by with today. Put up with a lot of "fluff" for some good sermon ideas and illustrations.
Sadly, John R kind of "adopted" Hyles and his mentality and the big "numbers game" and emphasis on simplistic soul winning replaced Spurgeon's sermons, which took over the Sword on Rice's death.
Content changed. Sermons cut. Lots more "fluff" and little of value. And the ads for the clone "mega-churches" and their little sectarian "colleges" got more and more irritating. Now I have little use for it and no longer subscribe.
We have a secretary there on the BB, so think this should give some good balance to this discussion.
Well...I'm here Dr. Bob!!!
JohnB, we in fact still print much material by Billy Sunday, D. L. Moody and Dr. R. A. Torrey. Very good sermons in fact!
As far as Dr. Rice liking them...he liked everyone and fellowshipped with everyone. He would share a platform with any denomination and it was well-known that he would. It is only my opinion, but it is a little harder to do that nowadays. It seems that doctrinal standards are more diverse between the denominations...making it more difficult to see eye-to-eye on certain issues.
I believe Dr. Smith and the Sword has a bad reputation because of our staunch separation from worldliness and other sects. Let me make it clear though...it does not mean we hate people that are not IFB...KJVO...etc.
Dr. Smith is simply standing up for what he believes is right for the Sword and he is not out to hurt anybody. We believe the Sword is being built back up after it's decline in Dr. Hutson's later years. It has been a struggle but evidence was shown at this years National Sword of the Lord Conference in Walkertown, North Carolina. There were so many people there that late arrivers could not get in the church...and it is a large church.
I know one complaint with sermons that are in the Sword is that they are cut. I am one of the typesetters on the Sword...and I agree, some things are cut and rearranged. There are reasons though. One is to update illustrations so they are more easily understood. Another is to make it more easy to read. And yet another would be to make figures accurate. If there is too much in the sermon that would have to be cut because of doctrinal lines being crossed, then it would not even be considered.
One aspect of the Sword that most people don't realize is that we have several proofreaders that edit and change sermons before Dr. Smith even sees it. Most of the time, if Dr. Smith deletes something...it is something that can be taken offensively or perhaps in a "bad" way.
Dr. Bob...I agree, there are many, many ads in the Sword. Some of those churches are small though. The churches buy the ads and most months we have to turn churches down for inches. If we accommodated every church that wanted to advertise, it would be 24 pages of ads. No joke!!
Is there anything else that bothers people about the Sword? I am curious...but please don't be nasty when you reply. Please remember...this is a ministry that has touched many lives and it's one that I am proud to be a part of.
Back when I subscribed, it was the relentless asking of money that I found to be quite agitating.
How long ago was it? Just wondering...
I have heard that quite often from past subscribers. Sometimes it is a necessary. Right now, the roof on our warehouse is damaged and we have had thousands of dollars of books that have been ruined by the leaks. People have to know about a ministries' needs and the only way the Sword can do it is in their paper or thru the Swordbearer. I know that everyone cannot give and that is fine, but it is because of the asking that people get burdened and donate money. I would like to add that we don't just ask for money...there is so much prayer time spent at the Sword and I believe that is why needs are fulfilled.
Valid question and I thank you Gershom. A reply would be welcome with your thoughts and perhaps any suggestions.
The last time I read it (couple of months ago) there was an article about what they written to try and defend Premillennialism, but should have been titled A Defense of Dispensationalism. There is a huge difference between Historic Premillennalism and Classic Dispensationalism. But of course this was never referenced. The article was so full of errors it was laughable. As one example the writer (I forget who it was, Boyd I think) used quotes from Spurgeon to try and show that he supported Dispensationalism (but what he kept calling Premillennialism) which he did not support in any way, shape or form! A little real research would have revealed this fact. But we wouldn't actual facts getting in the way of "good writing" now would we?!?! Pretty much a KJVO rag without much real value, unless of course you have some windows that need cleaning.
Excluding you, I have not heard any complaints on the accuracy of this piece.
And just because you don't agree with the paper does not make it a "rag." That was a very rude statement. There is one person that works at the Sword that has been employed there since she was 16 and is now in her 80's. Would you want to tell her that the paper she has put her life into is just a "rag"?
And do you even realize the number of people that come to a saving knowledge of Christ through the ministry of the Sword? I'm sure that doesn't matter though...now does it?
Are there any questions from sincere inquiring minds instead of people who spout off insults?
How KJVonly is the Sword? I treat that as a heretical doctrine that is divisive and (as we've shown on the Versions Forum here) totally man-made and without a single verse of evidence.
I know John R (remember, my experience with the Sword was in the 60's) was NOT and used other versions and even had a sermon and tract I used on using the Catholic Bible to win someone to Christ.
But I know Curtis was much more opinionated. Where does Sword/present editor (Smith?) stand?
Thanks for YOUR willingness to talk!
You are right on Dr. Rice. He did use other versions at times, and I could probably see proof of it in my husband's library. Jimmy was given a great number of books that included old books of Dr. Rice's which had his markings and notes in it. Very neat to look at!!!
Anyway, Dr. Hutson was indeed the beginning of the KJVo stance. Through looking at the old materials at the Sword, the only thing I have found so far that Hutson referenced other than KJV was the Amplified version. I have never really looked at an Amplified Bible but, from what I am told it is not necessarily another version. Maybe you can help me on that.
Now, as far as Dr. Smith. He uses the KJV. When he preaches, he doesn't necessarily make it a point to say, "You must use the KJV or you're not in the will of God." He was KJV when he was at Westminster and he didn't forget that when he came to Murfreesboro. I know he catches a lot of flack for it, but I respect him for staying strong in his convictions. I would also like to add that it is much easier to edit biblically based books when you use the version that you are familiar with and have always used!!
I have only worked at the Sword since May of 02 but I have learned a lot. I have learned that not all IFB churches are KJVo. They don't have to be either. People are going to use what they want regardless of what church leaders say.
I think it is unfortunate that Dr. Smith is pounded upon daily by critics. He is a very humble yet Christlike man. Many people have his same views but unlike them he is able to voice them to a larger audience.
If you are able to read the Letters to the Editor section, it is evident that many people back the Sword on their stance. I just wish more people understood that the Sword is simply trying to spread the Gospel to a lost and dying world.
BTW Dr. Bob, I love talking about the Sword!!! It is a wonderful ministry and a family to me and I find much comfort there. In fact, it was a Sword employee that donated a kidney to me!!
Somehow that doesn't suprise me
Correct, the content does
Didn't start off as such, but it as grow into such and if she asked I would tell her so
No, how many?
Someone coming to Christ is very important, what does that have to do with the quality or content of the Sword?
This isn't your forum or a topic you started! If you want to start a thread inviting people to inquire about the in's and out's of The Sword of the Lord, go right ahead. There was a question, asked and I gave my opinion. The Sword of the Lord is absolutely psuedo-Fundamentalist. In other words a rag.
I wouldn't worry about it to much..
It has been a couple of years since I was able to
subscribe.. hopefully going to change that soon.
But I do not see them as becoming 'pseudo' anything.
As to the Kjvo thing.. I suspect that Br. Smith's
views would line up with mine.. I use the KJV because
it is the one I understand the best.. I don't like
the new stuff that is put out there too much..
for various reasons... but I have friends that
can't wrap their heads around it so I tell them to
use a version that they can.
I have also found them to be quite helpful to me
there at the Sword.. whether it is helping a
friend locate a good church fellowship... or the
need for me to reprint an article....
They have always been gracious...
I thank you for your work there.
That is an amazing act of generosity. Wow! The both of you should write a book or article or something about the entire experience.
Well, I don't believe I said it was my topic, but seeing as how Dr. Bob said that the Sword worker might bring some balance to the topic...I thought I would be nice and see if anyone wanted to ask me anything. Most of the time there are two separate topic forums on the same subject they are combined so, I felt I could pose the question. And as far as your opinion being given, that is fine. I also gave my opinion!!
Thanks Mark. It is such a blessing to part of the Sword!!! Miraculous stories come in every day of how the Sword has changed someone's life and I get so tickled when I hear that someone has been saved!!
That is an amazing act of generosity. Wow! The both of you should write a book or article or something about the entire experience. </font>[/QUOTE]Very generous indeed!!! I don't think I could write anything for crying though. The Lord orchestrated the entire situation and it humbles me to even think someone could risk everything for me. Joyce has a very Christlike attitude and I am so blessed to be her friend and kidney recipient!!
Side note: I'm going to bed...I will catch up with all of you in the morning!!! BTW, I'm not mad at anybody who attacks the Sword. I just want to be able to explain things to the best of my ability without the harsh words. nighty-night
Appreciate your openness. Look forward to more discussion.
BTW, all of my calvinist friends are continually irritated that when a Spurgeon sermon is given, the "calvinism" that is evident in every page of these sermons is carefully SNIPPED to make it look like Spurgeon would agree with the easy believism so prevalent in ifbX churches.
Why even HAVE a Spurgeon sermon if they are gutted of anything that the Arminian types that believe the simplistic 1-2-3-pray-after-me-heresy find objectionable? Who is doing this butcher job on theology?
We believe the Sword is being built back up after it's decline in Dr. Hutson's later years.
In what way did the Sword decline under Dr. Hutson?
[ November 20, 2004, 03:51 PM: Message edited by: Dwayne ]
actually that has already been answered Bob..
things are snipped.. mostly for space available..
Of course if you want the uneditted version of
Spurgeon's works.. you can do what I did and
buy the whole package...
if you cna't afford that,,, then go to
they have quite a bit online.
They aren't... BTW... what is supposed to be hard
Sometimes walking the walk is hard..
Sometimes deciding to accept Jesus is hard..
Actually accepting Him is easy..
Was pointing out the systematic "rape" of Spurgeon's theology, while still using his pix and name in sermons. Not just editing for space, etc, but for theological reasons.
We can discuss the aberrant theology the hylish crowd in the Theology Forum. I have deep misgivings about their view of soul-winning and Gospel message when compared with Scripture.
We condemn easy believism of the ecumenical evangelists and then practice a worse type at the "altars" in some ifbX churches.
Not yours, of course!!