Hasn't BOTH Calvinism/Arminians stated original Sin is a Biblical truth?

Discussion in 'Calvinism/Arminianism Debate' started by Yeshua1, Jun 10, 2014.

  1. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1
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    Haven't BOTH of those theological constructs affirmed that its taught in the Bible?
     
  2. convicted1

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    I think the DoG and classical Arminianism BOTH do, if I'm not mistaken.
     
  3. Yeshua1

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    Hasn't it been considered to be THE orthodox Christian position?
     
  4. convicted1

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    Yes..........
     
  5. Doubting Thomas

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    Yep...and so do Lutherans. All three affirm the absolutely necesssity of prevenient grace before anyone can come to faith in Christ. As such they adhere to the Western orthodox position, propounded primarily at the Synod of Orange in AD 529.

    The following may be a little simplistic, but I've often characterized the three roughly as follows:
    Arminianism= Semi-Augustinian
    Lutheranism= Augustinian
    Calvinism= Hyper-Augustinian
     
  6. JamesL

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    You're right about the Western churches.

    But the Eastern church (Orthodox) reject Original Sin. The Orthodox believe "fallen humans, not fallen humanity"

    As far as the original poster is concerned, there is no "THE truth" of original sin. It's a doctrine which was contrived by Tertullian (as best as I can tell) after the early church lost almost all recognition of the distinction between body and spirit. He seriously misread Romans 5:12-21, and fabricated the notion of Traducianism to account for how a man is supposedly born spiritually dead on account if physical lineage from Adam.

    This grievous application ran into a train wreck concerning Christ, so the church eventually had to contrive the notion of Immaculate Conception to give philosophical relief to such an awkward dilemma
     
  7. Winman

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    That is not what is important. The Catholic church has been baptizing babies for 1700 years now, does that make it right? NO.

    What matters is what the scriptures really teach, and they do not teach Original Sin.
     
  8. Yeshua1

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    Would you agree that the Church has on the whole viewed it as being correct doctrine?
     
  9. Yeshua1

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    Jesus and the Apostles all did though!

    Why are you so against accepting the truth that we are all sinners due to Adam, and now saved due to the faithfulness of the second adam, jesus Christ?
     
  10. Doubting Thomas

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    It seems to be the gist of Romans 5. Even the Eastern Church (which another poster referenced above) affirms "ancestral sin" which had the effect of bringing corruption and mortality to all of Adam's offspring. (Afterall, the Eastern Church likewise recognizes Pelagianism as a heresy.)
     
  11. Winman

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    If you would like to post scripture that proves this statement, I will be happy to consider it.

    You seem to think that simply because you say something, that makes it so.

    I could show you all sorts of scripture that I believe clearly shows the apostles DID NOT believe in Original Sin. I can show you scripture that I believe clearly shows Jesus did not believe in Original Sin.

    Romans 7

    7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
    8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
    9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
    10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
    11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.


    Paul in Romans 7 is clearly describing when he learned the law as all young Jewish men do. In verse 7 he tells us he would have not known sin, except by the law. He would have not known what lust is, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

    Then in vs. 9 plainly says he was "alive" without the law once. This must be speaking of that time before he learned the law as a child, as the law was written at least 1300 years before Paul was born. So Paul could not possibly be saying he lived before the law was given.

    Again, Paul said he was "alive" without the law once, but when the commandment came (when he learned the law as he said in vs. 7), sin revived and he died. Sin is not imputed without law (Rom 5:13), so Paul could not be imputed "a sinner" until he learned the law. When he did learn the law he was convicted as a sinner and spiritually died. He cannot possibly be saying that he physically died.

    This passage clearly refutes Original Sin to any honest reader.

    Peter also refutes Original Sin in 1 Peter 2:25;

    1 Peter 2

    25 For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.


    As Jesus described a shepherd who had 100 sheep in Luke 15, but one sheep went astray and became lost, Peter also describes Christians as sheep that went astray from Jesus and became lost, but are now RETURNED to Jesus.

    This refutes Original Sin that teaches all men are born sinners alienated from God. This clearly shows men are not born alienated or separated from God, but go astray sometime after their birth. Then when they repent they are said to be RETURNED to Jesus. This scripture easily refutes Original Sin.

    In Luke 15, Jesus compares lost sinners to a sheep, a silver piece, and a young man that has become to be known as the prodigal son.

    None of these were originally lost.

    Luke 15

    4 What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it?


    The sheep was not originally lost, the shepherd had (having) 100 sheep.

    8 Either what woman having ten pieces of silver, if she lose one piece, doth not light a candle, and sweep the house, and seek diligently till she find it?

    The silver piece was not originally lost, the woman had 10 pieces of silver.

    11 And he said, A certain man had two sons:

    The prodigal was not originally lost, the father had two sons.

    None of these persons who became lost sinners were originally lost. In addition, when the prodigal son repents, twice we are told he is "alive again"

    24 For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.

    32 It was meet that we should make merry, and be glad: for this thy brother was dead, and is alive again; and was lost, and is found.


    Original Sin teaches that all men are born "dead in Adam". This scripture easily refutes that. No man can be alive AGAIN if he was born spiritually dead.

    So, here are two apostles and Jesus Christ himself who clearly did not believe in Original Sin.

    Original Sin is an invention of the RCC. It has led to more false doctrine than any other error including Infant Baptism, the Immaculate Conception, Baptismal Regeneration and many other errors.

    The word of God does not teach Original Sin, it clearly refutes it.
     
    #11 Winman, Jun 11, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 11, 2014
  12. Yeshua1

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    Parables are NOT to be used as primary source texts for major doctrines though, as they were teaching a main point...

    And David knew that in sin he was conceived, Jesus and Jeremiah BOTH affirmed that the human heart is verood thing, none ever sought after God?y wicked, prophets stated over and over again they had hard hearts...
    isaiah and peter both described us astray, away from God correc
    t?

    Paul stated that none of us seek God, but were estranged from Him, at war with him...

    does NOT sound like innocent states, does it?
     
  13. Winman

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    Actually, Jesus said that parables revealed spiritual truths to real believers and hid truth from false believers.

    Mat 13:10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
    11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

    No, David said in sin did his mother CONCEIVE him. It is the mother who conceives, not the baby.

    Psa 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

    Again, it is the mother who conceives. It is not absolutely known what is meant here, but it could be possible David was conceived out of wedlock.

    When Paul said none seek God, or that none doeth good, he is speaking of 100% perfection. He is not saying man cannot do good.

    And scripture easily refutes your view that man cannot seek God, the Philipian jailer burst in asking how he could be saved.

    Acts 16:29 Then he called for a light, and sprang in, and came trembling, and fell down before Paul and Silas,
    30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
    31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

    The Philipian jailer could not have been regenerated by YOUR OWN STANDARD. You believe that regeneration and faith occur at the very same instant, but the Philipian jailer sought God BEFORE he believed. In fact, he did not even know he had to believe until Paul and Silas told him.

    So scripture easily refutes all of your views. You do not seem to understand scripture. Maybe that is why you never post scripture to support your views, but parrot man-made doctrines.
     
    #13 Winman, Jun 11, 2014
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  14. Yeshua1

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    man, as in the state of being sinners, CANNOT know the true God apart from the working of the Holy Spirit to enable them to do that!

    And david was referring to him being born as a sinner, not that his mother had sex outside marriage, as they would have stoned her for that, and he would not have even been born!

    Again, you take inability to mean always doing sin, all athiests etc

    Bible defines it as sinners cannot come to know God in a saving sense, as left to their own ways, will follow false religions, and do good works tp try to get right!
     
  15. Winman

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    It has nothing to do with being sinners, it has to do with being ignorant. No man is born knowing of the true God and the gospel of Jesus Christ. The only reason any man knows the gospel is because God through his word (which IS Spirit) has revealed that to men. Faith comes by hearing "the word of God".

    Rom 10:3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

    No, he was describing his mother, it was his mother who "conceived".

    David said he was fearfully and wonderfully made.

    Psa 139:14 I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well.

    What would be wonderful or marvellous about being made a wicked sinner? NOTHING.

    You are the one that thinks everything an unsaved man does is sin, but Jesus said sinners can do good.

    Luk 11:13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?

    Jesus said evil men can ask for the Holy Spirit. Why would someone who has already received the Spirit and been regenerated need to ask for the Spirit? Nonsensical. All of Calvinism is nonsensical.

    Jhn 4:10 Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water.

    The Samaritan woman was a sinner, yet Jesus said she could ask and he would give her living water, which is the Holy Spirit.

    Rom 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
    18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

    Paul here said these Romans were servants of sin, but they obeyed the gospel. Once they obeyed, "then" they were made free from sin and "became" the servants of righteousness.

    I could go on and on and on, there is volumes of scripture that refutes your false views and Calvinism. You aren't even close to truth. And you don't care.
     
    #15 Winman, Jun 11, 2014
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  16. Yeshua1

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    His mother was a sinner, she conceived david in that state, david was born as a sinner, who still was in the image of God!

    And we do NOT hold that sinners cannot do good works, nor be religious people, but that their good works gather NO merit for them before God, and that apart from the Holy Spirit waking them up, will still reamin in their dead state, and choose to follow false gods and religions!
     
  17. Winman

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    Psa 51:5 says David's mother conceived him in sin. It is the mother who conceives, not the child.

    Psa 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

    There could be several possibilities of what this means, but what we do know is this:

    David's mother's name is NEVER mentioned in scripture. This is notable considering how much is written of David in scripture.

    David had two sisters, Zeruiah and Abigail, whose father was Nahash the Ammonite. So David's mother had been married and divorced from a non-Jew or had children out of marriage with a non-Jew.

    David had a different mother than his seven older brothers who were tall and handsome. David was short, ruddy (red) and not handsome to look at.

    When Samuel the prophet asked Jesse to present all his sons to him, twice Jesse refused to present David. The older seven sons were all invited to the feast, while David was left alone to watch sheep. Only when Samuel insisted the third time did Jesse finally bring David forward.

    So, David was the "black sheep" in his family and was not treated well by his father or older brothers. This very likely had to do with his birth and his mother. His mother was involved in some sort of sin when David was conceived, and this seems to be the reason why David was regarded as inferior by his own family.

    But Psa 51:5 IS NOT saying all men are born sinful. You have to read that into scripture to get that interpretation, which is exactly what Augustine did. Augustine was the first (ever) to argue this verse taught OS.

    No, Calvinists talk out of both sides of their mouth. They say a man is compelled to obey his sinful nature, and therefore CANNOT obey the gospel. Then you directly contradict yourself and say sinners can do good. You want your cake and to eat it too.

    No, Romans 6:16-18 clearly refutes the Calvinist doctrine of Total Inability

    Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
    17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
    18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

    First, Paul teaches that we are NOT compelled to obey sin. Paul says we are servants to whom we YIELD ourselves, WHETHER of sin, OR of righteousness. This proves we have both option and ability to do good or evil.

    Second, Paul clearly says these new believes obeyed the gospel when they WERE the servants of sin. This utterly refutes Total Inability.

    Third, Paul clearly states that AFTER these sinners had obeyed the gospel while they WERE servants of sin, that BEING THEN set free from sin, they BECAME the servants of righteousness.

    That is plain as day to any honest reader. A servant of sin can obey the gospel, and when they do, BEING THEN (afterward) they are made free from sin and BECOME a servant to righteousness.

    Calvinism and Total Inability is false doctrine, plain and simple.
     
    #17 Winman, Jun 12, 2014
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  18. Yeshua1

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    Jesus stated that ALL sinners are bound/mastered by sin nature, that it rules over them, and ONLY those whom he sets free are free!

    Jesus saw us all enslaved to sin until salvation comes, do you agree with Him or not?
     
  19. Winman

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    I agree that every one who sins is the servant to sin, but I disagree with the Calvinist concept that this is teaching you MUST sin.

    A slave does not have to obey his master. A slave can run away from his master. So, being a servant to sin does not mean you MUST sin. What it does mean is that sin owns you, you are his property. No matter what you do, good or evil, you belong to him and his wage is DEATH. This is what Paul is teaching. This is how you are bound, to death.

    Heb 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
    15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

    This is why Jesus had to come to earth as a man, in "the same" flesh and blood as us. He had to die to sin. God in heaven cannot die, but Jesus as a real and true man was able to die, and this is how he defeated the devil, "through death'.

    Jesus paid the penalty of sin, he DIED. Sin has been satisfied. But death could not hold Jesus and he rose from the dead, never to die again.

    When we believe on Jesus, we are baptized into his body and we died with him (or rather "in him") to sin. Our penalty was satisfied. And now we have been raised to new life with him, never to die again. We are no longer under the law, but under grace, and the free gift to us is eternal life. We are not bound under the law any longer, now we serve righteousness.

    Romans 6 utterly destroys the false doctrine of Total Inability. Paul said of the Roman Christians that while they "were" the servants of sin they obeyed the gospel.

    It was only AFTER obeying the gospel that they were set free from sin and BECAME the servants of righteousness.

    Any truly honest person would admit this scripture utterly refutes Total Inability.

    Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
    17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
    18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

    Calvinism falsely teaches that we sin because we are slaves to sin. Paul said the opposite, Paul said we are slaves to sin because we choose to sin.

    Paul showed that sinners have the option and ability to choose whom they obey, "whether" of sin (personified) unto death, "or" obedience unto righteousness (personified).

    Paul showed that sinners actually obeyed the gospel while they were still sinners.

    Paul showed that it was AFTER obeying the gospel, it was BEING THEN that they were set free from sin, and BECAME servants to righteousness.

    Total Inability is utterly false doctrine, Romans 6:16-18 proves this. You have to knowingly and willingly reject the word of God to hold to Total Inability.

    And you will.
     
    #19 Winman, Jun 13, 2014
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  20. Yeshua1

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    Again, being mastered by sin does NOT mean that all of us were gross sinning all of the time, but does mean that apart from the work of God, NONE of us could do good works of the right kind, to merit favor of God, and that NONE of us actually wanted to know the real God, as we all follow own image of God and religion that we make up!
     

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