Separate names with a comma.
Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by Bible-boy, Nov 6, 2003.
Can someone show me from an open Bible where we get this dichotomy?
Isn't that what God does?
BBII, it is a dichotomy forced upon us by the psychobabble of today's evangelicals.
God hates the sin and the sinner.
God loves the sinner to provide salvation that he might be in the love of God.
It is the biblical shorthand for emulating the attitude of Jesus (and therefore all of the Godhead) toward sinners. It was the attitude of Jesus to those He encountered.
Study His words and actions in the gospels and you should see it.
Jesus showed them love by telling them to repent and be saved.
BB, can you provide Scripture without such a broad idea as just reading the gospels?
Habakkuk 1v13 cf. Romans 5v8?
Yes, one is supposed to hate the sin and love the sinner. That is VERY easy to substantiate from Scripture. The second part of the Great Commandment is to love our neighbors. It does not say that we should love them only if they are not sinners! Or only if they are saved (in our fallible estimations). We are to love them. Period.
On the other hand, it is also equally clear that we are to hate sin.
To call this psychobabble is to call the Bible a book of psychobabble...
Bibleboy, I think I misunderstood you. Are you talking about us or God loving the sinner but hating the sin?
But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
Christ died for us while we were yet sinners and we are to be like Christ.
You can't get any clearer than that.
If we are children of God, there should be no difference. We are to do the will of our Heavenly Father.
Therefore, you should try your best to treat others in a loving manner -- even if you need to address their lost condition or confront a pattern of sin.
BB, there are passages throughout the Bible where God explicitly states that he hates certain people, not just their sins.
So, if I take your advice, I should hate certain people, not just their sins.
The problem is that you can't separate who a person is with what they do. The dichotomy only works if you can.
Remember, people are evil, not just their works. God hates what is evil.
If God specifies a person to "hate" in His written word, then feel free to "hate" them.
Nonsense! For instance, I can't stand a lot of your posts because they are filled with false judgments against others and (in my opinion) grieve the Holy Spirit -- yet I have faith that God is working His purposes out in you and that through our exchanges we will both grow in faith and grace.
Fortunately, you can. Remember, Jesus specifically teaches us to love our enemies and to do good to those who oppose us. If those Whom God "hates" are your enemies, you are still under a crystal clear mandate from Christ that you are to love them and do good for them. If you reject that, you've rejected part of the teaching of Jesus. And since Jesus is fully divine and in perfect unison and union with the Father and the Holy Spirit, you must reconcile His teaching with whatever other biblical teachings you are using as guidelines for your behavior.
Yes. But at the same time, God is at work in the world granting people a new birth and transforming evil people into representatives of the Kingdom of God.
God also loves those who are evil. (John 3:16, Romans 5:8)
I realized that you probably have logical problems with it, but God is not a formula -- God is Person (the One from Whom our personhood has come - we are made in His image).
The only person (I think) that God says He hates is Esau in a comparitive passage with Jacob. "Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated" (Romans 9v13)
All of the rest of scripture speaks of God's love for sinners - how about John 3v16?
I am amazed that a serious arguement for hating the sinner is being made. I want to think this is not a genuine statement.
People, lets follow the discussion here. I know about John 3:16 and the rest of the passages.
The question was not whether God loves people or not. The question was whether it is biblical to say to love the sinner and hate the sin.
The answer is the totality of Scriptural revelation, not just a passage here or there.
Now, in the BIBLE, God says that he loves and hates people, not just their sin.
We on the other hand are commanded (at the very least) to love people.
Now, I will give an easy example of how this all plays out.
Hitler (suppose I knew him and that he was still alive)
I hate Hitler for what he did AND for who he was. He only did what he did because of who he was. Understand? Now, I loved him enough to have given the saving message of Christ to him.
So, the hate is there. However, God has chosen to extend mercy to those who believe that they might be in God's favor. Lost people DO NOT enjoy the favor of God. If you really think they do, you need to explain how they go to hell.
The opposite of love is NOT hate, it's indifference or apathy.
Daniel, what does Galatians 5 say about the works of the flesh and hate?
Um, I’ve been following the discussion… And far as I can tell, everyone else is as well.
And John 3:16 and the other passages mentioned are directly relevant to the issue… If we are truly disciples of Jesus, then we should take our cues from Jesus.
Interesting… Just a few posts ago I pointed you to the entirety of the gospels and you demanded specific scripture references. Now that people have given you very specific and explicit scripture references you demand we take a wide-angle view again.
You’re over-simplifying. It has not been disputed that God may “hate” some people (Esau is particularly noteworthy), but as I remember the number of specific people mentioned is very small. On the other hand, it is also very clear that God loves very sinful people. There are many people God has not stated He hates – and it’s pretty clear from context that He hates their sins – remember the people of Ninevah.
Hmm… I only hate what Hitler did. (My family suffered greatly because of Hitler and the Nazis, so I’m not saying that lightly.)
You’re oversimplifying again. He was certainly an evil and sinful person, but he was also very tormented and grew up in a German culture that was spiritually bankrupt. There was also quite of bit of occultism in German culture at that time and he because thoroughly immersed in it – it is almost certain he was under strong demonic influence based on what was happening in his life.
Certainly he could only be who he was, but his actions were also influenced by external forces. He was fully guilty for his actions but was also a person shaped by the moment.
But it should only be hate for his actions.
You’ve suddenly started using the word “favor”. Since I believe you are referring to the Calvinistic idea of election, let me switch the discussion back to the issue.
Lost people often enjoy the love and favor of God.
God often gives good gifts to those who are in rebellion against Him. (God send rain on the just and the unjust and Romans teaches that the mercy/kindness of God brings us to repentance)
They face final judgment because they have determined to stay in rebellion against God.
Luke 6:27 "But I say to you who hear: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, 28 bless those who curse you, and pray for those who spitefully use you. 29 To him who strikes you on the one cheek, offer the other also. And from him who takes away your cloak, do not withhold your tunic either. 30 Give to everyone who asks of you. And from him who takes away your goods do not ask them back. 31 And just as you want men to do to you, you also do to them likewise. 32 But if you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners love those who love them. 33 And if you do good to those who do good to you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners do the same. 34 And if you lend to those from whom you hope to receive back, what credit is that to you? For even sinners lend to sinners to receive as much back. 35 But love your enemies, do good, and lend, hoping for nothing in return; and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High. For He is kind to the unthankful and evil. 36 Therefore be merciful, just as your Father also is merciful.
One of the major differences between God and man is that God knows the heart of man, and man does not even know his own heart! Therefore God can and does judge the man; we, however, are forbidden to do that. Thus there is the clear mandate, as we have seen several times in this thread, to love the sinner. Love does NOT mean 'good feelings' and 'I'd marry him/her.' Love is caring about a person over and above how you care for yourself.
So we are to care deeply for all those God puts in our path. We may judge actions, but not the person, and there is an absolute biblical and common sense mandate here.
For instance, many of us are parents. Our children have lied to us, stolen from us, disrepected us, etc. etc. Do we still love them? You'd better believe it! Do we hate these sins of theirs? Again, you'd better believe it!
When the Holy Spirit told Philip to go meet the Ethiopian, the only direction the Holy Spirit gave was to walk alongside. Not to judge, not to confront; just walk alongside. It was in this way that Philip found himself able to minister to the man, not by way of judging him or anything he had ever done, even.
Hitler? What if someone had honestly cared enough for him to confront him early on? What if......???
Now the man is dead, we find it easy to judge. We are actually presuming God's judgment, by God's standards, however, not our own judgment by our own standards. With Hitler, we're probably right. However I am betting there are a number of people who will be big surprises to us in heaven.
We HAVE to hold up the standard of right and wrong. Thus we MUST hate the sin.
We also HAVE to obey Christ, whose main command was to love, first God and then others. We are to judge not (the person himself/herself) lest we also be judged (using that same standard).
In the Bible, I think also we find that those who God says He hates are not simply sinners, but those who thrive on sin and promote it among others. This is a lot different from just being a regular everyday sinner, which we all are, saved or unsaved. This is being a promoter of sin, and possibly an emissary of Satan, knowingly or unknowingly.