Have Southern Baptists Strayed?

I totally disagree and we've given plenty of scripture on the eternal security thread to back it up.

The Holy Spirit woos us to Christ ... He does not then desert us nor entice us to leave the fold.

 

It really is a matter of letting the clear teaching of Scripture speak for itself. The matter in dealing with hyper Calvisnist always comes down to their accusation that I don't believe in the sovereignty of God, ridiculous. It does not take anything away from the sovereignty of God to believe, as the Bible clearly shows, that God created man with the ability to accept or reject His wonderful offer of salvation in Jesus. And there is no credit given to someone who receives salvation from the only One who can give it. Are we sinners, yes without any hope without the sacrifice of Christ. Can we come to God of our own accord, no way, the Spirit brings us to the Savior (John 16). Did Jesus die for just the elect, no (1 John 2:2). Does that mean all people will eventually be saved, no only those who believe and receive (John 1). How long will that salvation last, forever (John 3:16). Does God forknow who would and who would not receive His Son, yes (Eph 1).

I have expressed this before and will again, the day I meet a Calvinist who is not one of the elect I will seriously begin to consider that all five points are valid. Wait, no I won't, because I don't consider them to be biblically supported.

Bro Tony

 

Diane,

Would you please point out the scripture you have quoted that specifically deals with the issues I have raised?

Thanks,

Joseph Botwinick

 

No because this has been discussed ad infinitum on the eternal security thread and SBC do not believe you can lose your salvation. Off topic.

Bro. Tony gave you plenty of scripture in the post above.

 

We always have to be careful with the study of "Calvin"---I remember hearing Adrian Rogers say something like---"Calvin was somewhat less than inerrant and infallable!!"

Me?? Maybe a 3 and a 1/2er! But for one to withdraw fellowship from another---over a fraction of a point---well, sheer stupidity!

 

agreed.

Can we come to God of our own accord, no way, the Spirit brings us to the Savior (John 16).[/QUOTE]

Agreed. Although, I am thinking that this goes against the idea of free will choices that Arminianism teaches.

Did Jesus die for just the elect, no (1 John 2:2). Does that mean all people will eventually be saved, no only those who believe and receive (John 1).[/QUOTE]

What about thosae who are not saved when they die? Based on your earlier statements, does that mean the spirit did not lead them to salvation? How much free will do we really have? If we could save ourselves from hell, don't you think we would do so?

Joseph Botwinick

 

See, Bro. David, I agree. I agree with SOME of what 'Calvinists' believe and some of the other camp. Why must we be one or the other and not just Baptists? It's a divisive issue and should not even be on this thread. There's a forum for C/A discussions.

So isn't it neat that all these non SBC'ers are telling us what's wrong with the SBC.

 

I am an SBCer for the past 32 years.

Joseph Botwinick

 

Actual Topic

 

Bro. David and Diane,

I heard nothing about not fellowshipping with other Baptists of other beliefs until this post. Go back and take a look. BTW, I agree with you Bro. Dave.

Joseph Botwinick

 

That is my point Joseph, it does not always come down to calvinism vs arminianism. These man-made theological systems, why they may be helpful to some, are not comprehensive in and of themselves. Only the Bible deals correctly with all the issues of salvation. Man can't, nor can his systems, only God can.

What about thosae who are not saved when they die? Based on your earlier statements, does that mean the spirit did not lead them to salvation? How much free will do we really have? If we could save ourselves from hell, don't you think we would do so?

Joseph Botwinick [/QUOTE]

Biblically it is not a matter of saving ourselves, we both agree only God can bring salvation. It is a matter of whether a person can resist the Spirit. I believe that the Bible teaches they can. Stephen called the Jews stiff necked. Jesus said of the people in the Galilee, "If these signs were done in Sodom and Gommorah, they would have repented", Jesus said of Jerusalem, "How I long to gather you as a hen does her chicks, but you would not". John records for us in John 1, "He came unto His own, but His own would not receive Him, but to as many as receive Him, He has given the right to become the Children of God, to as many as believed on His Name.

Do I think that if people could save themselves from hell they would? Not really the issue, but I am not sure they would. God has provided in His Son all that is needed for all men to be saved, yet men refuse this free gift. Jesus said," Narrow and difficult is the way to eternal life and few are those who find it, while broad and easy is the way that leads to destruction and many that go that way."

Bro Tony

 

That is my point Joseph, it does not always come down to calvinism vs arminianism. These man-made theological systems, why they may be helpful to some, are not comprehensive in and of themselves. Only the Bible deals correctly with all the issues of salvation. Man can't, nor can his systems, only God can.</font>[/QUOTE]Arminianism teaches that man has the free will choice to choose salvation. This contradicts what you say you believe. You said yourself that nobody can be saved unless the Spirit of God draws them. If the Spirit does not draw them, then what choice do they have?

Joseph Botwinick

 

I would argue that this is not a rejection of the Spirit of God, as that would make the sovereignty and power of God of no effect and would submit the will of God to the will of man. A sovereign God is almighty and above the will of man. It is not a rejection of the drawing of the Spirit, rather a lack of the drawing of the spirit.

Do I think that if people could save themselves from hell they would? Not really the issue, but I am not sure they would. God has provided in His Son all that is needed for all men to be saved, yet men refuse this free gift. Jesus said," Narrow and difficult is the way to eternal life and few are those who find it, while broad and easy is the way that leads to destruction and many that go that way."

Bro Tony [/QUOTE]

My point would be that man is not capable in any way, shape or form of saving himself. Therefore, it is not his choice whether or not he is saved, but rather, the sovereign will and election of God. This is in direct opposition to the teachings of free will arminianism. Opposing doctrines cannot live in peace with each other, especially not when the issue is as important as the sovereignty of God (the character of God) and the salvation of mankind (the nature of salvation).

Joseph Botwinick

 

Joseph,

Re-read my above post. Does the drawing of the Holy Spirit equal salvation, or does a person responding to the drawing of the Holy Spirit equal salvation? Do men have the ability to resist the Holy Spirit? I think if you and I were honest we would have to say that we have each in our lives even since we have been saved have resisted the Holy Spirit. When God does something in my life now as a Christian it comes through the leadership of His Spirit in my life, I have a choice to follow the Spirit or not, if I follow the Spirit good things happen. Do I get any of the credit? Certainly not, all things of eternal consequence in my life are the work of God in me, He gets all the glory. Could I resist the way the Holy Spirit is leading and miss what God wants to do through me? Yes. The same is true when the Holy Spirit draws a person to Christ, they will either accept or resist. It does not make God any less God if a person resists and it brings no glory to the person if they accept.

Bro Tony

 

Bro. David and Diane,

I heard nothing about not fellowshipping with other Baptists of other beliefs until this post. Go back and take a look. BTW, I agree with you Bro. Dave.


Joseph Botwinick </font>[/QUOTE]Are you talking about my post? I would not stay in a church where a preacher preached something I felt was wrong. That is 'sitting under one'.

 

Joseph,

Re-read my above post. Does the drawing of the Holy Spirit equal salvation, or does a person responding to the drawing of the Holy Spirit equal salvation? Do men have the ability to resist the Holy Spirit? I think if you and I were honest we would have to say that we have each in our lives even since we have been saved have resisted the Holy Spirit. When God does something in my life now as a Christian it comes through the leadership of His Spirit in my life, I have a choice to follow the Spirit or not, if I follow the Spirit good things happen. Do I get any of the credit? Certainly not, all things of eternal consequence in my life are the work of God in me, He gets all the glory. Could I resist the way the Holy Spirit is leading and miss what God wants to do through me? Yes. The same is true when the Holy Spirit draws a person to Christ, they will either accept or resist. It does not make God any less God if a person resists and it brings no glory to the person if they accept.

Bro Tony </font>[/QUOTE]Bro. Tony,

Please re-read my post. Only those who are drawn by the spirit will be saved. At the very least, this takes away the free-will choice from those who are not drawn by the Spirit. Further, the Bible teaches that those who live in the light, who are saved, do not live a life of sin. They are not perfect, but they also have the convictioin of the holy spirit to bring them to repentance. I find nowhere in the Bible where those who are not saved have the same advantage. Further, the Bible teaches that the elect are made new, transformed by the renewing of our minds. James tells us that faith without works are dead. He then goes on to say that the evidence of our faith is our works.

Joseph Botwinick

 

Here is where we are going to have to agree to disagree. I don't believe, as I stated earlier, that there is a conflict between God's sovereignty and man's ability to accept of reject God. God is sovereign, and He sovereignly created man with the ability to chose. Man's choice, when the Holy Spirit convicts does not make God subject to man's choice, because the issue is not about what man can or cannot do for God, but what God has done and offers to man. If a person rejects God's wonderful gift it does not make God any less God. God is not hurt by it, His glory is not tarnished, He is not made impotent, that person has brought God's just judgment on himself.

If I believed everything that happens, happens under the view of most hyper-calvinist view of the sovereignty of God, I would have to believe that the original sin occurred at God's direction, making Him at fault. If you want to talk about something that is contrary to the nature of God, that's it. God is holy and does not sin not tempt with sin. Remember the fall took place when man was not in a state of "total depravity"

Bro Tony

got to go will check back later. God Bless, and I have enjoyed the good spirit we have discussed this with.

 

Bro. David and Diane,

I heard nothing about not fellowshipping with other Baptists of other beliefs until this post. Go back and take a look. BTW, I agree with you Bro. Dave.


Joseph Botwinick </font>[/QUOTE]Are you talking about my post? I would not stay in a church where a preacher preached something I felt was wrong. That is 'sitting under one'. </font>[/QUOTE]You would not, therefore, fellowship with that body of believers in their Church because they might believe the same as that Calvinistic pastor. Either way, my point was that nobody on this thread said anything remotely close to not fellowshipping with others over this issue until your post. It almost seemed to me as if you were trying to imply otherwise.

Joseph Botwinick

 

Here is where we are going to have to agree to disagree. I don't believe, as I stated earlier, that there is a conflict between God's sovereignty and man's ability to accept of reject God. God is sovereign, and He sovereignly created man with the ability to chose. Man's choice, when the Holy Spirit convicts does not make God subject to man's choice, because the issue is not about what man can or cannot do for God, but what God has done and offers to man. If a person rejects God's wonderful gift it does not make God any less God. God is not hurt by it, His glory is not tarnished, He is not made impotent, that person has brought God's just judgment on himself.

If I believed everything that happens, happens under the view of most hyper-calvinist view of the sovereignty of God, I would have to believe that the original sin occurred at God's direction, making Him at fault. If you want to talk about something that is contrary to the nature of God, that's it. God is holy and does not sin not tempt with sin. Remember the fall took place when man was not in a state of "total depravity"

Bro Tony

got to go will check back later. God Bless, and I have enjoyed the good spirit we have discussed this with. </font>[/QUOTE]Have you ever read the book of Job? What if God did tempt someone with sin? Would you say that God is unfair, unholy, and unjust? Perhaps, you should spend some time reading God's response to Job when he questioned God's justice. It is close to the end of the book of Job.

Joseph Botwinick

 

When I was a student at SWBTS I would hear older and soon to be retired professors say that the students coming to the seminary know less each year compared to the students of a number of years ago.

So don't think for a minute the SBC hasn't changed.