Have you considered why people go to hell?

The only thing that sends a person to hell is his disbelief in Christ.

Isn't that the judging of the saved? We will be judged for our works. For the rest of them (unbelievers), they are cast into the fire, no questions asked.

 

OliveBranch, what you are saying is exactly in line with Psalm 1 and many, many other parts of Scripture. The crucifixion took care of sin; all sin. Our belief or disbelief in Christ is what determines our eternal destiny.
Ref. John 3:16-18 and on

[ December 28, 2002, 04:17 PM: Message edited by: Helen ]

 

I agree that being born a sinner does indeed condemn him; but it merely condemns him to death.
Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; (KJV)
Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: (KJV)

The only thing that condemns a person to hell is when they refuse to accept Christ's substitutionary atonement. The payment for all sin was secured when Christ died on the cross. (Hebrews 10:10) We have only to trust in that finished work and repent of our sins.

I'm so thankful that after we trust Christ there is no longer any threat of condemnation.
Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. (KJV)

 

Isn't disbelief sin? Sin means missing the mark, a departure. Heb. 3:12, Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.

Now acts of sin are the mere evidence of sin. So the Law says Thou shalt not covet, so the covetousness I see tells me there is sin in my heart.

By the law is the knowledge of sin.

 

Along with disbelief comes a lack of knowledge. know one that knows of hell would want to go there.

 

I don't know about that.

Before Jesus saved me, I accepted the fact that I was going to Hell!

Happy New Year, to all!

 

That we are sinners, a state we have by virtue of the acts of our federal head after the flesh, Adam, is sufficient to merit us condemnation without a specific denial of Christ. (We are born "in Adam".)

 

Does the discussion boil down to the question:

Was the Cross and sacrifice of our Lord Jesus Christ substitutionary for the sins of the whole world, or was it substitutionary for only those who come to Him?

If it was substitutionary for the whole world, then the rejection of Christ is the ticket to Hell.

If it was substitutionary for only those who come to Christ, then those who stand condemned already are bound for hell because of unpropitiated sin.

May God so bless His precious children.

A servant of Christ,
Drew

Psalm 51:10
Create in me a clean heart, O'God, and renew a right spirit within me.

 

I don't think so.

I think the question is : "what is the nature of original sin?"

If it is something that merits, of itself, condemnation, then a person need not actually DO anything to merit Hell.

If the answer is otherwise, then you must actually DO something to merit hell.

Some here have said that the action must be specific: denying Christ. Others have said that any sin will do.

But it is difficult, in either case, how this conception is actualy true to the biblical doctrine of original sin.

 

I think the question is : "what is the nature of original sin?"

If it is something that merits, of itself, condemnation, then a person need not actually DO anything to merit Hell.

If the answer is otherwise, then you must actually DO something to merit hell.

Some here have said that the action must be specific: denying Christ. Others have said that any sin will do.

But it is difficult, in either case, how this conception is actualy true to the biblical doctrine of original sin.

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By Adam sin entered, but the Word says that all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.

Does not the propitiation go beyond original sin, and encompass all of our iniquities?

A servant of Christ,
Drew

 

Can only some of the benefits of the atonement accrue to a person and not all? And those that do accfrue without explicit consent while others require such consent? Where is that in Scripture?

Your reasoning leads to universalism. And that is even harder to square with original sin.

 

Can only some of the benefits of the atonement accrue to a person and not all? And those that do accfrue without explicit consent while others require such consent? Where is that in Scripture?

Your reasoning leads to universalism. And that is even harder to square with original sin.

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I don't follow your question. Does the question not return to the cross of Christ, and whether the atonement was in fact universal, or limited.

Did Christ's sacrifice cover universal sin, and the only act which sends one to hell is the rejection of Christ?

Was Christ's death a limited atonement, and is the propitiation for ONLY those who come to Him, thus all who do NOT come to Christ are already condemned because of sin?

A servant of Christ,
Drew

 

Drew asked, "Does not the propitiation go beyond original sin, and encompass all of our iniquities?
"

Yes, Drew, it does. Just as Pastor Bob 63 stated above, Jesus took care of ALL sins on the cross, past, present and future. That is not because of us so much as because of God Himself -- all sin, great or small -- is an insult to God and must be atoned for. God will not allow most insults against Him to stand and only take care of a few!

The writer to the Hebrews, in chapter 2, issues the strong caution, "We must pay more careful attention, therefore, to what we have heard, so that we do not drift away."

He then continues with something that seems ignored by many:

For if the message spoken by angels was binding, and every violation and disobedience received its just punishment, how shall we escape if we ignore such a great salvation?

First of all, we read here that the full extent of punishment is in the past where all violation and disobedience is concerned. This is being written AFTER the Cross; after the crucifixion. And, indeed, after the crucifixion, every disobedience and violation had been atoned for. This is reiterated in other words a little later in this chapter when the writer states, in verse 9,
But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so tht by the grace of God he might taste death for EVERYONE.

And wages are only paid once. When death for EVERYONE was experienced by Christ, ALL sins from all times and places were atoned for, all punishment for sins taken care of.

Going back to the earlier quote in verses 2-3, we see the writer asking how anyone could escape who IGNORES such a great salvation. In other words, it is the response of man to Christ which condemns him. This is exactly what John 3:16-18 states:

For God so loved the WORLD that he gave his one and only Son, that WHOEVER BELIEVES in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. WHOEVER BELIEVES in him is not condemned, but WHOEVER DOES NOT BELIEVE STANDS CONDEMNED ALREADY BECAUSE HE HAS NOT BELIEVED in the name of God's one and only Son.

And Preach, the reason I brought in other verses and other passages is because Bible explains Bible. We have to read the ENTIRE book in context and not pick out bits here and there to support what we think already. Psalm 1 states clearly that the wicked will not stand in the judgment. That clearly means there is a judgment for those in Christ which is according to works, as we read later in the NT. That has nothing to do with the fact that a great number of people have literally consigned themselves to hell through disbelief. But while the sin of disbelief has been atoned for, the fact of it remains, and God allows those who refuse Him to be without Him eternally -- as they wished.

[ December 29, 2002, 05:38 PM: Message edited by: Helen ]

 

If Jesus paid for sin then it is paid for, full and complete. If you say that "unbelief" is the only thing that sends people to hell, then you have said either that 1) unbelief is not sin or 2) all sin is not covered.

If unbelief is not sin, then you have people getting to heaven by their own merit -- the merit of their belief. No matter how much you deny it, you can't get away from it. For you, the difference between heaven and hell is something people do. I reject that from top to bottom and I can be consistent with it.

Are you denying that unbelief is sin? Or are you denying that Christ died for all sin? (I can answer both from Scripture; I just want to know which answer I should give here.)

Plus you still haven't dealt with Revelation 20 which has been brought up numerous times. Why won't you deal with it??

 

When the sin of theft is atoned for, the theft is finished, done. When the sin of murder is atoned for, the murder has been commited and is done. When the sin of adultery is atoned for, the adultery is a deed which is done.

But unbelief is an ongoing CONDITION of the heart which, although atoned for in terms of being an insult to God, nevertheless remains the condition of that person.

That is the difference.

As far as Revelation 20:11-15 is concerned, we have already read (hopefully) in the rest of the Bible that there are levels, or degrees, of punishment in hell as well as different rewards for those who are heaven-bound. Thus I don't see any problem with judgment by works there -- but the fact that those who are going to hell are bound there due to unbelief is the biblical teaching.

 

Jesus did indeed pay for all sin once and for all. The mere fact that He paid for the sin does not mean that everyone will take advantage of that payment. Are you advocating that those who go to hell have never had their sins paid for? If so, please give biblical support.

Unbelief is sin to be sure. But it is the only sin that, left undealt with, will result in eternal damnation in hell. Unless one repents of the sin of unbelief, turns to the Savior, and accepts His finished work he cannot be saved.

I may die in a backslidden condition with unthinkable sins in my life. Those sins will not send me to hell if I've trusted Christ and accepted Him as my Savior. II Peter 1:9 teaches that it is possible for a Christian to get to the place where they actually forget that their sins have been forgiven. They are still saved; they're just not living like it.

Revelation 20 is simply the end result of the choice that an unbeliever makes. If he refuses to accept Christ, he will have to be judged according to his sins. He refused to accept the payment that Christ offered. He refused to draw from the account that had already been paid in full.

The Christian, on the other hand, will not be judged according to his sins. He has accepted Christ's sacrificial payment for his sins. He will be judged according to what he has done for Christ since he became a Christian.

 

Well, even the traditional view of general atonement holds that the benefits of this atonement (i.e.--erasing your sins from the slate) are only applied to the individual when they believe. So the unbeliever's sins remain upon him, and he is judged for those, along with his unbelief. Under the traditional view of general atonement, there is no individual benefit of the atonement that accrues to the unbeliever.

So this is not really about limited vs general atonement, at least the traditional doctrines. It is about this new, upstart atonement theory traceable back only 30 or 40 years--that all sins of everyone are forgiven at the cross, and it is only unbelief that sends people to hell.